Origins of the "New" Races

[Hussar]

It's funny, you've got a group of people jumping up and down claiming there are problems where none exist. Eladrin teleport operates under quite a few restrictions. First, and probably foremost, it's 25 feet. Think about that for a second. Twenty-five feet.

That's a decent sized room. You can jump that far if you're really good. Heck, you don't even get a first down with that teleport. We're talking REALLY short range.

Then there's line of sight. You need to be able to see where you are going. So, no bypassing locked doors and the like.

Moats were mentioned. If the moat of your castle is less than 25 feet across, why did you bother in the first place? A 25 foot wide moat isn't going to slow anyone down, regardless of your teleporting abilities. Take a minute to look at some real world moats. I'll bet you dollars to donuts they are wider than eight yards.

So, how exactly would a 25 foot teleport help in a siege? If my walls are shorter than 25 feet, I'm not going to withstand a siege by regular forces. Murder holes were mentioned as well. Take a look at the gate entrances of many castles. Guess what? Longer than 25 feet. So, whoopee. You teleport into the middle of the entranceway and then sit there for 5 minutes while I pour boiling oil on you. Gee, that was useful.

This reminds me so much of the criticisms of 3e. People went on and on and on about how this or that was totally unbelievable. Except, when you actually sat down and read the rules, you find that the designers weren't usually brain dead gophers, and actually plugged most of the "holes" that people keep "finding".

But, a heck of a good try though.

 

[Phaezen]

Common Sense

Stop using your fancy common sense, this is the internet.

Phaezen

 

[rounser]

We're talking REALLY short range.

It's a freaking TELEPORT. Your argument is like, "Oh, it's okay, dogs in every D&D world ever now only fly SHORT distances." May as well have NPCs with breath weapons wandering around all over the place...oh wait, there is that too.

Why didn't they just put in the magic robots in the first PHB and call it a night.

 

[Mallus]

dogs in every D&D world ever now only fly SHORT distances."

Now that's silly. D&D dogs don't fly, they teleport cf. blink dog.

Why didn't they just put in the magic robots in the first PHB and call it a night.

That's a damn good question.

 

[pawsplay]

I see you didn't like my blindfolded and shackled idea. How about putting those pesky Eladrin in a stockade with heavy burlap sacks overs their heads?

Better. Not ideal, but still better.

Now you're no longer talking about the game world's population of NPC Eladrin. The Eladrin's Fey Step is no different from any other minor magical ability PC's typically have access to, and that the DM needs to be mindful of.

Well, it is different, because it's not a minor magical abiity. It's a major magical ability that eladrin have to a minor degree. The issue is not at all that PCs are going to abuse it; it is, as pointed out, trivial compared to the capabilities of wizards. What bothers me is that entire communities of eladrin have this ability.

While such a thing is conceivable in a fantasy setting, it's a far cry from the "grey elves" I'm used to. It would be really nice if there were communities of high elves who did NOT teleport, but sadly, the 4e designers decided they needed no such creature. As a result, Eladrin communities are simply different from those of other races presented in previous editions. Maybe it's "better," but to me, it's a a serious stutter if I want to run a game with a similar feel to the Dragonlance trilogy or the Penhaligan trilogy or LOTR or even Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword. If I want the game to have the barest resemblances to a traditional swords-and-sorcery or chivalric romance game, Eladrin would have to be pretty rare, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm looking for in a core race.

Some people don't like magic trains, or robots, or traditional castles, or Lawful Good paladins, or guns, or whatever. Me, I don't like an entire race of high elves who *BAMF*. It messes with my high elves. It misses with communities that have a high elf minority. It creates situations I don't want to deal with - "We captured ten Eladrin warriors. Good thing we happen to have ten iron maidens with us."

 

[Fifth Element]

Oh, and everyone is just participating in an exercise of in playing contrary.

Speak for yourself.

Here's how I see the conversation going:

A: "Fey step is a huge, huge problem."
B: "Really, how?"
A: "Example 1, Example 2, Example 3."
B: "Easy Solution to Example 1, Easy Solution to Example 2, Easy Solution to Example 3."

B is trying to be helpful, because A perhaps does not realize what the restrictions on fey step are: maximum 25 feet, line of sight required, once every five minutes at most. I mean, when someone asks if eladrin use ferries, this strongly implies the person does not realize that fey step has a maximum of 25 feet.

Now, if you don't like the flavour that's fine, and I can't argue with that. But when specific arguments are presented about how it can be problematic mechanically, and easy solutions to such problems exists, why would we not present them? Especially when most of the poblems seem to result from a lack of understanding about how the power works?

 

[Fifth Element]

Well, it is different, because it's not a minor magical abiity. It's a major magical ability that eladrin have to a minor degree.

That's just semantics. There is no practical difference between those two things.

It creates situations I don't want to deal with - "We captured ten Eladrin warriors. Good thing we happen to have ten iron maidens with us."

That's perfectly fair that you don't want to deal with them. But this conversation started when you said fey step is "so world-changing I can't even begin to imagine the consequences". Given the specific problems you mentioned and the very simple answers to most of them, it seems to me you were significantly overstating the problem.

"I don't like it for flavour reasons" is fine. "I don't like it because it makes moats useless" is going to elicit a response, because it shows a lack of understanding about how it works.

 

[Fifth Element]

It's a freaking TELEPORT.

It's a TELEPORT that has a maximum range that's less than half the distance a human walks in six seconds. You seem to be fixating on the word 'teleport'. This is not the same thing as the teleport spell from previous editions, not at all.

Your argument is like, "Oh, it's okay, dogs in every D&D world ever now only fly SHORT distances."

You would seriously consider that out of place in D&D? Have you read the Monster Manual?

Dogs are awesome!, regardless of whether they fly or not.

Why didn't they just put in the magic robots in the first PHB and call it a night.

They're in the Monster Manual. And presumably the Eberron book.

 

[AllisterH]

. It messes with my high elves. It misses with communities that have a high elf minority. It creates situations I don't want to deal with - "We captured ten Eladrin warriors. Good thing we happen to have ten iron maidens with us."

A 15' hole in the ground can stomp eladrins teleporting.

The solutions offered are pretty mundane and are things that even a medieval society already have and were using ALREADY.

 

[pawsplay]

I mean, when someone asks if eladrin use ferries, this strongly implies the person does not realize that fey step has a maximum of 25 feet.

Or that someone overestimates the width of a typical navigable river. Person B is undoubtedly trying to be helpful, but I don't think the "easy solutions" presented really address Person A's concerns. At all. Person A was probably familiar with the short range of fey step, if not from the teasers that have been coming out for months, than from the fact it was mentioned in this very thread.

I feel pretty affronted by the implications that I am not familiar with fey step, that I am being "contrary," or that I am somehow failing to understand how simple this all is. Fey step creates some huge world building issues, and calling that "flavor" is facile and reductionistic.

I do not like being condescended to. Whether or not that was your intention, that is how I perceive the tone of your posts. I would appreciate it if you did not continue in this line of criticism and kept to the topic at hand.