[OT] Hero System Fifth Ed Review

Why would I debate BESM vs Hero? To me, there is no contest. :)

I'll leave it at that to try to sidestep some flames...

On a more serious note though. I like BESM much more than Heros. Yes, granted, it's a very "lite" system, but it's a very workable system, and it's VERY fast. And it encourages flavor at basicly every turn, not surpresses it.
 

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Michael Tree said:
Bah. Marvel Superheroes (the one from the 80's) all the way.

The one time I played that, it was with a really bad GM, so I never picked it up. Alas; now I think it might've been nice.

Speaking of superhero games I didn't mention: I did have fun playing Villains & Vigilantes a few times. Actually, I think the next time I have to make a character for any supers game, I'm going to roll randomly on the V&V tables, then translate that into whatever (probably Hero, some d20 game, or SAS). Rationalizing the results (or not, and just managing to come up with a decent name) was always the funnest part. :)
 

NLP said:
The game is not that hard to learn. It is not that hard to play. It just take getting out of the D&D mentality and expressing your own creativity.
Hey, I take exception with this. First of all, I'm not stuck in a D&D mentality at all - D&D can be quite annoyingly inflexible. Secondly, I express my creativity all the time. I just prefer to express it in terms of character development, story, game setting and atmosphere, and interesting new archetypes, rather than in terms of trying to fit square powers in round game mechanic holes. I am much more impressed by interesting characters and ideas than I am by novel combinations of a game mechanic framework.

I guess that's why I'm an artsy, not a computer-person.
:D
 

Michael Tree said:
Besides, NPC creation wasn't only what I was talking about.

Wasn't what I was talking about either.

Imagine, for example, a situation where a huge Iron statue is rampaging, and is extremely tough to actually hurt. A character with fire powers and another with ice powers think up an idea where the fire character heats up the iron statue, the cold character then freezes it, and they repeat this a few times until a superstrong character then bashes the hopefully-brittle iron statue.

I as a GM like to reward this kind of quick creativity. However, by the Hero rules, each would be making completely seperate attacks, and the combination wouldn't do a thing unless they had previously bought it as a power combination. This kind of strict mechanical determinism bugs me.

Do you care to show me a system that does this off the cuff without application of fiat? If you wouldn't limit yourself to the rules in other games with sketchier definitions, why would you do it in HERO? It would be simplicity itself for the GM to rule "okay, your attacks stack for the purposes of overcoming its armor."


If a player on the fly thinks of a new way he can use his power - not a new capability mind, but a new way the power he has always had could be applied - good for him.

Unfortunately, I think you are remiss to allow that. Not all conventions used in comics translate well into games. Handing out freebie powers to players who try to weasel their way into it is NOT a good idea.

Now in hero, the closest I'd be willing to allow is putting the points aside and letting them player spend them on the fly. Not too expensive if you have a multipower.
 

Hero being my favorite game system I'm going to make a few comments before I pick up 5th tomorrow morning.

After my 1st year of playing champions I never hada problem with the speed of combat. Is it as fast as the old marvel game or maybe the marvel game that used cards, no. BESM I ear is faster and I'll assume it is. But I think D&D combat after 5th level takes about the same amount of time, and combat after 10th level takes a lot longer than champoins games. Like most systems at the basic level it is attack roll, damage, apply damage after defenses. Once I knew the system I never found it slow.

Wierd powers you can't create. Their is truth in that, some powers shown in comics where the character is green lantern like are tough to handle, shapeshifting I never had a problwm with, but making mechanical constructs from metal would eb tough I admit. Time stop, is simple IMO and fits perfectly well conceptually. Just use EDM, special effects more than cover the necesarry subtle diferences in the normal use of this power. Then something like str bought as transdimensional if you want to effect the real world. Admitedly transidimensionl came out in a supplement I think.

As for fire and ice combo v iron golem. Well again that's simple, a GMs adjudication of special effects. It's just like how someone with flameblasts does actually catch things on fire, or someone with ice powers can do some nasty damage by freezing water pipes. And there are plenty of combat maneuvers to handle things like combo attacks, so with the special effects rules that ice/fire thing would be a logical decision by the gm to make.
 

Michael Tree said:

Imagine, for example, a situation where a huge Iron statue is rampaging, and is extremely tough to actually hurt. A character with fire powers and another with ice powers think up an idea where the fire character heats up the iron statue, the cold character then freezes it, and they repeat this a few times until a superstrong character then bashes the hopefully-brittle iron statue.

I as a GM like to reward this kind of quick creativity. However, by the Hero rules, each would be making completely seperate attacks, and the combination wouldn't do a thing unless they had previously bought it as a power combination. This kind of strict mechanical determinism bugs me.


As others have said, this is the GM area. However, I'd like to comment on why some GM's specifically don't want to use their "powers" to allow this to work after a few times of doing it.

GM allows it. Next adventure they fight a power armor maniac. The players realize that his armor is metal. They decide to use the same tactic to get that bonus they got for creative thinking.

A few adventures later they have to break through an iron vault door. Wait, let use that power combination again.

Suddenly, this "rewarding" of the players creativity has turned into rewarding non-creativity. Plus the players now have a very useful damage bonus they didn't pay the points for, out powering the other players.

Now, this can be handled. Keeping to the genre, you only allow the bonus once. Heroes never use these things over & over (maybe it'll be reused once again to show continuity years later). If you want the bonus again, spend the points.

Still, a few similiar situations like this will shy some GMs from allowing such creativity, which is also a shame. Still, it's not the systems fault. It's between the GM & his players (or his former players).

Glyfair of Glamis
 

Hi again!

On the topic of combat supposedly taking longer in Hero, I'll point out that much of this perception may have to do with the power level of Champions. Run a combat between two small parties (4-8 characters each) of epic or near-epic level characters, all with their full complement of magic items and sneaky tricks, and see if that doesn't take as long as a typical Champions-level Hero combat. Or run the epic crew against a goodly horde of 6th-8th level characters analogous to the pile of Viper/Genocide/Terror Inc. agents that a Champions crew will often be facing, and see how long that takes.

Posted by Michael Tree:
Try to make a shapeshifter elegantly, and without costing 500 pts for only moderate capability.

Yeah, dealing with polymorphing is simple; that's why it's never had to be revised in any game...what? Oops... :)

Shapeshifting is supposedly one of the things that gets some substantial reworking in Hero 5. However, under the old rules, Shapeshift, the size-alteration powers, and movement powers and Life Support bought usable only in appropriate form would simulate the equivalent of a Polymorph Self spell adequately. For shifters who get all powers of any form they can shift into, a Variable Power Pool will of course be necessary, just as it is for power-mimickers who don't change their shape.

Posted by Michael Tree:
Try to elegantly create a character who can summon black force which he can move and form into any shape, like Marvel's darkforce. This is a simple enough concept, but is a nightmare do implement. In the end I made it a power pool, and had to precalculate 6 or 7 pages of different effects.

Hmm, don't remember all the effects of the nebulously-defined Darkforce, but my stab would be a Power Framework with Darkness (duh), Telekinesis and Force Wall (for the "solid darkness" objects), Flight with Usable on Others and Area Effect (for riding on solid-darkness platforms), and perhaps Ego Attack or some form of Drain for the Darkforce's spirit-weakening properties. For those who want Cloak's "movement through the Darkforce Dimension" trick, Extra-Dimensional Movement or Teleport, bought Usable on Others.

Posted by Michael Tree:
Try to create a character who can freeze time, like in the time stop spell. For fairness he can't harm anything while time is frozen, but he can move objects or himself.

This sounds like Teleport, Usable against Others, Area Effect, Selective. He stops time, and when he starts it again, things are in effect instantaneously moved. Some form of Clairsentience or other perception power seems appropriate too, to represent the looking around he can do while time is stopped.

Posted by Michael Tree:
Try to create a character who can manipulate metal, and shape it into mechanical or mobile form.

To create personal gadgets would simply be a Gadget VPP, with instant shifting, and limitations reflecting the requirement to have metal on hand and any limitations on the types of gadgets he could build with it. To create golem-like animated creations, use the Summon power. To do both, just get the Gadget VPP and define the Summon as something as a power that can be stuck in the Pool.

Posted by Michael Tree:
These are superhero powers, but no doubt there are numerous spells in the PH that would be very difficult to implement as powers in champions. Polymorph other and shadow evocation and conjuration come to mind.

Polymorph Other is a Transform, with whatever customization the buyer feels is necessary - Variable Special Effects is a likelihood, to represent the many possibilities. Shadow Evocation is an EB or RKA with reshapeable Area Effect and Variable Special Effects, and extra damage dice that don't work if the victim makes a PER roll. Shadow Conjuration is a Summon with summoned critters constructed so that they get weaker to those making a PER roll against them.

Posted by Michael Tree:
I as a GM like to reward this kind of quick creativity. However, by the Hero rules, each would be making completely seperate attacks, and the combination wouldn't do a thing unless they had previously bought it as a power combination. This kind of strict mechanical determinism bugs me.

Um, no. It's pretty clear that the GM can indeed simply rule that this works, just as characters can pick up a fallen Viper agent's gun and use it for the duration of a combat without paying points for it (assuming they have appropriate Weapons Familiarity). It's only the stuff that characters use regularly and reliably that is expected to be noted on character sheets and paid for; if your players try to abuse this leniency, you are well within your rights as GM to spend their earned XPs for them on the abilities that they are trying to get for "free". Hero has never expected people to pay for relatively minor, rarely-used side bennies of their powers' chosen special effects.

There are powers and abilities Hero has trouble with; they tend to be "absolute" abilities (like the gravity-control debate in one current thread on the Hero Games boards). Too often, though, "Hero System can't do my simple concept!" really means "Hero System is making me pay points for my simple but incredibly useful and versatile concept commensurate with its versatility!".
 
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Psion said:
quote:
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Imagine, for example, a situation where a huge Iron statue is rampaging, and is extremely tough to actually hurt. A character with fire powers and another with ice powers think up an idea where the fire character heats up the iron statue, the cold character then freezes it, and they repeat this a few times until a superstrong character then bashes the hopefully-brittle iron statue.

I as a GM like to reward this kind of quick creativity. However, by the Hero rules, each would be making completely seperate attacks, and the combination wouldn't do a thing unless they had previously bought it as a power combination. This kind of strict mechanical determinism bugs me.
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Do you care to show me a system that does this off the cuff without application of fiat? If you wouldn't limit yourself to the rules in other games with sketchier definitions, why would you do it in HERO? It would be simplicity itself for the GM to rule "okay, your attacks stack for the purposes of overcoming its armor."
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Actually, I think in Champions/Hero, the Iron Golem would have a Vulnerability disadvantage of some kind to reflect it's weakness in the face of hot/cold attacks.

If a GM didn't think to write this up in the Golem's stats, it's the GM's problem/limitation, not the system's.

VRYLAKOS
 

Generally, I tend to agree that Hero System has trouble with absolute effects. So in this case, directly translating over DnD spells doesn't always work.

I can't really comment on 'darkforce' or the metal shaping powers since the primary question in Champions terms is not power but 'what does it do'. Say, creating a character who 'shaped' metal found around him into a armored suit and then could fire off bits of metal to attack, could shape metal to create keys for nearly any physical lock, etc, would be pretty easy though. Buy armor, buy a physical blast, buy lockpicking. They have the special effect of using the metal you are reshaping.

I suppose it's a matter of familiararty with the system. But I can make up encounters on the fly in Hero System easily. It's in d20 I have more trouble since it's easier to kill someone in d20, so I try to be more careful. Improvising in Hero system is easy for me. I've still not found a good way of doing it in DnD.

You get players saying, " I do a 4d6 ranged killiing attack, explosion. I shift a couple levels into my magic skill and couple levels into OCV, I roll a 9 to hit and hit a DCV of 8. The primary damage is 14 body and 42 stun, the next range increment does 9 body and 27 stun, the next does 4 body and 12 stun and the last does a piddly 1 body and 3 stun..."
While I can see Laslo's point here as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with Hero System. In my d20 many people normally just say the spell they are doing, not the effect. Or someone says 'It do a full attack action with my sword'. In champions they more often named their attack. Someone with clawsd a killing attack would just say "I'm using my claws.' This is really much more a matter of players and GM than the game.

Imagine, for example, a situation where a huge Iron statue is rampaging, and is extremely tough to actually hurt. A character with fire powers and another with ice powers think up an idea where the fire character heats up the iron statue, the cold character then freezes it, and they repeat this a few times until a superstrong character then bashes the hopefully-brittle iron statue.
I like this idea. I'd have a requirement on how to work it but if they did it right I'd give the bonus, it's an excellent example of teamwork. That doesn't mean that it would work in every case. Just because that worked on raw iron doesn't mean it would work on the composite metallic powerarmor someone else has.
 

Michael Tree said:

Bah. Marvel Superheroes (the one from the 80's) all the way.

That was simple. :) I enjoyed playing it.

Looked at Hero once. Wow. Lots of numbers.

Own DC Heroes, 3rd edition. Nice system. Very nice system. Never played it.

Oh well, back to my Greyhawk D&D 3E campaign...

;)

Cheers!
 

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