[/B][/QUOTE]
Shard O'Glase said:
Also the cost of PD may be soewhat small, but in heroic games even small costs are a lot.
Funny. This is like the feats discussions where someone lists the benefits of a certain feat for a class and someone else chimes in "yeah but can you afford to waste the feat?"
Everything in HERO is at a cost. Some are large. Some are small. Some are in between. You will buy what is effective more often than what is ineffective and PowD is VERY effective for its cost.
Shard O'Glase said:
And it defends against a much more limited and rare group of attacks.
Now this is hogwash, or if not hogwash, bery misleading. i have seen in FH products polymorph built vs power defense (based on transform), i have seen poisons built vs power defense (based on drains tho some end up as NND RKAs), undead attacks built vs power defense (drains/suppress and transforms), and an incredibly wide assortment of other effects like slow spells (drain/suppress vs speed or running), grease spell (drain/suppress vs running), a quicksand trap (drain/suppress vs run), feeblemind (drain/suppress vs int or against magic powers), dispel magics (dispel, drain, suppress) and even itching powder (drain or uncontrolled suppress vs dex)
One of the balance problems with power defense is that the extremely wide variety of SFX that the adjustment powers are used for makes it a real catch-all sort of defense against a great many non-standard effects.
Now, due to the cost of these attacks and effects, they are more often seen in the hands of NPCs, where the GM can frankly afford to have them be eccentric and less efficient to serve the story. They will rarely be in the hands of point sensitive PCs tho.
Power D, with its wide ranging scope, is in a fantasy game the best spend for 5 points. Again, i saw this because my mages when they bought their "mage armor included 5 points of power defense routinely.
Shard O'Glase said:
Exactly what spell level would you place a protection v polymoroph spell that just gave a +4-6 luck save bonus. Me I'd place it around 1st or second level.
Sure, and ALSO, i would allow a significant limiter to power defense if it was limited ONLY ro polymorph. Instead of 10 points to stop the transform it would be 3 or at most 5.
While you have not said PowD was limited to only bs transform, you are certainly implying it here, which is either a gross misunderatdning on your part or blatent misinformation.
At least be up front and honest about what the HERO rules ARE.
Power defense is NOT "only vs polymorph" and if the list above is any indication goes against a wide variety of SFX and common fantasy elements like transforms, slows, undead draines, many diseases or poisons which debilitate, etc etc etc...
FWIW, when they were requestion suggestions for changes in HERO5, I suggested making Power defence require a defined SFX as a default, so the same shield of faith that protects you from undead drains would not also protect you from itching powder by default. The notion is that adjustment powers are the basis for way too many different types of SFX to make a ultra-cheap defense apply to all of them.
Shard O'Glase said:
You may disreguard the costs of power defense, but it is a limited defense. How much would those EB and RKA cost if they were vs power defense and could do body. Answer 3 times as much as there oridnary cost.
Actually i think its 2.5 as " avld" is a +1.5 at least if my memory of HERO4 is accurate.
I have iirc NEVER seen a PC choose that advantage in a game. the combination of the built in 40% reduction to your damage AND the cheap cost of power defense made instead NND attacks more preferable for those wishing to avoid mainline defenses.
Shard O'Glase said:
And it sounds like in your games the answer is to try to make broad attack powers vs a limited defense cost the same as narrowly focused attack powers against a natural defense that everyone gains for free which is one answer.
Everyone gains for free yes, but not enough to matter. The figures i gave several posts ago comparing the defenses needed INCLUDED the FREE. It did not include armor, which in some cases allows no point in exchange for wealth and armor penalties because of the nature of the opponent. Once you get into "level" types who have armor and gear and bought up stats the comparisons become so much harder to do since you have no idea as to body vs stun vs equipment vs speed vs con etc.
But lets try it for the commoner...
Commoner in plate providing him a defense of 10 net.
If he wants to stop the 9d6 30 RP EB 31 stunhe needs to spend an additional 21 points of defense. Against this attack, even with his plate, the first shot will drop him unconscious on an average roll AND con stun him. This will leave him typically out of combat for one complete turn. If during this period he is hit a second time, he is out for the fight for sure.
If he wants to stop the average 3d6 transform to carp/turtle his plate will do no good (I do not recall what effect armor gave so i do not know if it will make him easier to hit) and the attack will after two hits typically carp/turtle him. NO EFFECT is gained from the first attack, so he is still up and moving. To buy enough power defense to stop this attack on average he will need to spend an additional 11 points.
So even with plate and his natural defense, the severe imbalance is still there. It has not gone away. It has not really been affected. The only difference is needing about 2x more points o stop the EB instead of about 3x.
As for the absurd notion you describe to me for what I should do in my game, no...
i think a more reasonable less sarcastic notion would be to require as a part of power defense a SFX restriction as a 0 pt limitation. This way the same "stop undead drains" shield would not also protect you from itching powder and slow spells and grease spells and poisons. SFX categories would be campaign specific but could include things like transmutations, poisons, undead, etc or could even be as simple as allowing you to pikc three stats/powers of related SFX that the POW D protects (similar to how adjustment powers are purchased, you may notice.)
Along with that, changing transform so that when you have done BODY equal to body of the victim you get SOME benefit that lasts a short period of time and once you finally get to DOUBLE BODY you get the longer lasting effects would go a long way towards making that effect a viable power. This should be significant enough to equate to the "knocked out and constunned" and recover as quickly.
Duh-simple-damage attacks have three different stages of effect you can gain as you do more and more attacks... you can constun fairly easily getting the enemy to lose a phase (a very temporary penalty), you can gain unconsciousness for a longer period (perhaps the fight) by taking out all their stun (an intermediate length benefit) and a permanent one by eventually killing them.
if you want to leave the grande effect of poly (turtling them) as "equal to kill" then i can see that, but you need to recognize the tactical implications of losing BOTH the two previous stages of damage entirely. You have to at least recognize their impact on most battles and that their lack is a serious detriment.
EXAMPLE: A transform attack has no effect until the damage exceeds the body of the victim. When this occurs the transformation occurs but is unstable. The victim may "recover" the body damage on his phase as if it were stun damage. Thus, left untended, the transformation will reverse itself in a matter of seconds although the subject will be under the effects. Further transformation attacks which increase the body damage to double the oiginal body will finish the effect and now the transform is healed as body damage OR by the special condition rule. If this were the case, then our commoner would be carped/turtled after one typical attack but he would likely recover in a phase or two unless attacked again. this puts that attack on par with the same EB effects, although the Eb would leave him out longer if no further strikes were given even in plate mail.
As for turtling vs carping, the "restrain" aspect of turtling is there but frankly, once the enemy is unconscious and out for a while, you can easily restrain him or just keep him unconscious, in my experience. Of course, some exceptions will exist.
