[ot] Mars colonization

i think when people start trying to talk about the underlying motivations of other people the conversation they tend to make leaps that i am not willing to (how do i know what other people feel? do i really think i can generalize my personal motivations on humanity as a whole? what about the historical/social constraints to my ideas?)

plus, people tend to have a set position (IE people are inherently selfish, etc etc) and aren't discussing the viability of their position as much as pushing it.
 

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tleilaxu said:
That's quite a claim to make. If you have some secrets about human nature please share them! I guess all those pharaonic (?) projects were 'against human nature'. ditto for all those cathedrals that have been built

I haven't espoused any "secret" of human nature so much as stated the obvious.

Pyramids? If your plan for the colonization of Mars calls for the deification of our national leaders and widespread slavery, let us all know now, m'kay?

Wulf
 


Tethers aren't elevators. Although, they are still cool.

Vulnerable to terrorists? I suppose. So are airports and Canaveral.

Jürgen, diverting asteroids might be feasable right now if we knew it was coming decades in advance so we could design and build a ship to get us to it early enough, but as it stands, comets (which are the real dangerous planet killers) are poorly understood. They also tend to be moving faster, making getting to one early enough to divert (or blow apart if they really are loose iceballs) even harder. Most plausible defense ideas are basically ways to divert threats enough to make them miss, and I still think I'd feel safer if we weren't all living on the same target.

Wulf, I don't see what altruism has to do with anything. The altruists are the ones who want to us to concern ourselves with helping every human on earth to live comfortably before we waste resources on exploration and research. Going to Mars can be as much about greed and other base motivations as you feel things ought to be. All it'll take is some company deciding that they can make absolute :):):):)loads of money in the long term if they're willing to invest unprecedented levels of money in devloping the infrastructure to make regular travel and material hauling possible. There are people (like me) who'd go to Mars just because it's there. These are the same sort of people who'd start long-term terraforming projects knowing they'd never see the end results. People like that who have money are liable to spend that money to hire others and create foundations who's mandate is to continue long-term terraforming projects.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but no one said 'well, let's just not bother then.'
 

Sidran wrote

"Also the Moon is a good place for the weak hearted the moon one day be a good geriatrics home ( The stress of gravity will be lessened for those with weaker hearts)"

The problem with this is one would need to get them there and to do that you have to submit them to the huge acceleration of a rocket in order to escape earth. Thus you would place alot of stress on the heart just to get there. It kinda defeats the purpose.
 


Agnostic Paladin said:
The longer humans live, the faster the population increases, and some people think that we're already beyond the Earth's long-term capacity.

Wrong, on a few accounts:

#1- The nations of the Earth with the longest lived, richest populations have the lowest growth rates- look at Japan, Italy, or the Scandinavian nations. France, Germany, Britain and Canada don't have very high growth rates either. The only thing that is keeping the US at above replacement rate is immigration and the tendency among the poorer strata of society to have larger families. (Democratic Socialist nations, with less of a poverty problem, tend to have dropping populations) Russia, despite it's impoverished state, is also declining in population. China is quickly bringing their population under control as well with their one-child policy- it should stabilize around 1.4 Billion people by 2025. In fact, the world's population should stabilize around 8-10 Billion around midcentury.

#2- The Earth's long-term capacity is much higher than the doomsayers think- I'd estimate that 20 billion would be about the optimal population of the earth. Remember that we only inhabit a tiny fraction of the planet, and much of our current building practices are extremely wasteful. The oceans are completely uninhabited. Huge swaths of the world, such as most of Russia, the Western US, and Canada, are very sparsely populated. The US is already producing a large enough food surplus to feed all of the world's hungry- if only we had the incentive and the resources to feed them. (I think that the $457 Billion that Pres. Bush just had appropriated for weapons would be better spent on an anti-hunger program, but that's just me. :) ) Our cities are poorly designed, sprawling messes- by building upwards and using design strategies similiar to those advanced by Paolo Soleri, we could develop cities designed for housing much larger populations using much less territory. Combined with clean industry based upon emerging chemical technologies (biotech, nanotech) and energy resources (wind, solar, tidal harnesses, OTEC, even perhaps fusion or zero-point), we could end the destruction of our enviornment and reverse the damage by the end of the century.

Extending lifespan is very important to me... I feel that denying our impulse to live beyond our current span is to deny the potential of the human race. Same goes for not colonizing and terraforming other worlds. While the technology to do this may seem far out now, take a look at Ray Kurzweil's predictions- he estimates that the amount of technological change we'll see in the 21st century will be equal to that of the entire last 20,000 years of human history. We're in for a wild ride, folks- and I plan to see the whole thing. :)
 

Agnostic Paladin said:
Wulf, I don't see what altruism has to do with anything. Going to Mars can be as much about greed and other base motivations as you feel things ought to be.

I can agree with that.

All it'll take is some company deciding that they can make absolute :):):):)loads of money in the long term if they're willing to invest unprecedented levels of money in devloping the infrastructure to make regular travel and material hauling possible.

I think it's far from given that there's any profit to be made on Mars that is worth the trouble or the unprecedented investment. I can't see any modern day corporation with the vision to spend that kind of money for what may take scores, if not hundreds, of years. Not to mention the danger that they'll expend all the effort and all the resources to get there, only to have their rights yanked by some governing political body, and their work undone. As far fetched (currently) as a Mars expedition is, I am sure you have no trouble envisioning that unfortunate end scenario.

There are people (like me) who'd go to Mars just because it's there. These are the same sort of people who'd start long-term terraforming projects knowing they'd never see the end results. People like that who have money are liable to spend that money to hire others and create foundations who's mandate is to continue long-term terraforming projects.

Whom do you have in mind? I will be happy to make a donation. I suspect that when it comes right down to it, a modern day Columbus would have difficulty finding a patron.

My contention isn't that a trip to Mars isn't a worthwhile endeavor, and frankly I support an altruistic endeavor over a commercial or political one, I just think there has to be some major changes in human nature first. That's all I'm sayin'.


Wulf
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
My contention isn't that a trip to Mars isn't a worthwhile endeavor, and frankly I support an altruistic endeavor over a commercial or political one, I just think there has to be some major changes in human nature first. That's all I'm sayin'.
Like living long enough to see the results of these planetary-scale actions.

I think such a change of human nature would help a lot, but I don't think it's a prerequisite.
 

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