[OT][Math] Grad School -- Recommendations?
- Thread starter orbitalfreak
- Start date
Well, as someone just finishing up a PhD, might as well throw in my 2 cents:
1. Your top priority should be to figure out what you want to study. "Math" is way too general. The more specific, the better, but at least try to narrow it down to a particular sub-field. Even the best departments in the world aren't good in everything, so you need to figure out where the good places for your particular topic are. Try to pick a place with more than one professor who studies that topic, which leads to:
2. If you can (and this, I'll admit, is much harder than 1.), try to figure out who you would like to work with. In grad school, your advisor owns you, lock, stock, and barrel. You want to try to make sure that whoever you end up working with has a personality that's compatible with yours. Some advisors expect their students to work 80 hours a week. If that's important to you, you might want to find out before you sign on.
As for the person who said that going to a more prestigous school means more work, don't believe it. Students at "hard" schools don't work appreciably harder than those at second-tier institutions. I'm finishing up a PhD at MIT and had plenty of free time. The fact that I had no life is entirely my own fault.
Good luck. I'll close with a joke about mathematicians -- An engineer, a physicist, and a mathematician are each given a long piece of string and instructed to enclose the maximum area possible with that string.
The engineer lays the string on the ground in a circle, stating "A circle encloses the maximum area for a particular perimeter."
The physicist points out that the engineer has not accounted for general relativity, and therefore places the string in a very slightly off-circle shape. He states "I have successfully enclosed the largest space-time metric flux."
The mathematician makes a very small circle with the string, then stands inside it. He then states, "I define myself to be outside of the circle ..."
Like I said, good luck.
1. Your top priority should be to figure out what you want to study. "Math" is way too general. The more specific, the better, but at least try to narrow it down to a particular sub-field. Even the best departments in the world aren't good in everything, so you need to figure out where the good places for your particular topic are. Try to pick a place with more than one professor who studies that topic, which leads to:
2. If you can (and this, I'll admit, is much harder than 1.), try to figure out who you would like to work with. In grad school, your advisor owns you, lock, stock, and barrel. You want to try to make sure that whoever you end up working with has a personality that's compatible with yours. Some advisors expect their students to work 80 hours a week. If that's important to you, you might want to find out before you sign on.
As for the person who said that going to a more prestigous school means more work, don't believe it. Students at "hard" schools don't work appreciably harder than those at second-tier institutions. I'm finishing up a PhD at MIT and had plenty of free time. The fact that I had no life is entirely my own fault.
Good luck. I'll close with a joke about mathematicians -- An engineer, a physicist, and a mathematician are each given a long piece of string and instructed to enclose the maximum area possible with that string.
The engineer lays the string on the ground in a circle, stating "A circle encloses the maximum area for a particular perimeter."
The physicist points out that the engineer has not accounted for general relativity, and therefore places the string in a very slightly off-circle shape. He states "I have successfully enclosed the largest space-time metric flux."
The mathematician makes a very small circle with the string, then stands inside it. He then states, "I define myself to be outside of the circle ..."
Like I said, good luck.
tarchon
First Post
If anything, the more prestigious schools tend to have lighter requirements, but they usually make up for it with stiffer competition.
Picking a field and finding a prof or at least a department that's strong in it is the way to go though. Like don't do topology in a department of number theorists.
Math graduate study is a little different from science and engineering. It is still research-oriented, but classes and seminars tend to play a bigger role, and like science but unlike engineering teaching is fairly prominent too. Job experience is also virtually irrelevant for a typical math PhD, though if you don't manage to find an academic position (which is certainly possible), it can be useful. Networking is hugely important - it's how virtually all PhD-level jobs worth getting are gotten. Get to know anybody and everybody you can in the field. This also goes back to your choice of professor, since if you get a respected and well liked prof known by everyone, your chances of getting a position after you finish are much better than if you work with some obscure guy who works out of a closet in the basement. An unliked prof who is however brilliant and highly respected can work in math though, more than in many other fields, but you won't run into many of those.
And indeed, above all, don't pick a professor who will hate you. It's not necessary to be perfect buddies - mine was a Creationist... and, well, I'm very not - but having at least compatible attitudes toward work and research are extremely important. If your prof doesn't respect you in at least some way, your 10-year PhD studenthood will be very gruesome, if you finish it at all.
Picking a field and finding a prof or at least a department that's strong in it is the way to go though. Like don't do topology in a department of number theorists.
Math graduate study is a little different from science and engineering. It is still research-oriented, but classes and seminars tend to play a bigger role, and like science but unlike engineering teaching is fairly prominent too. Job experience is also virtually irrelevant for a typical math PhD, though if you don't manage to find an academic position (which is certainly possible), it can be useful. Networking is hugely important - it's how virtually all PhD-level jobs worth getting are gotten. Get to know anybody and everybody you can in the field. This also goes back to your choice of professor, since if you get a respected and well liked prof known by everyone, your chances of getting a position after you finish are much better than if you work with some obscure guy who works out of a closet in the basement. An unliked prof who is however brilliant and highly respected can work in math though, more than in many other fields, but you won't run into many of those.
And indeed, above all, don't pick a professor who will hate you. It's not necessary to be perfect buddies - mine was a Creationist... and, well, I'm very not - but having at least compatible attitudes toward work and research are extremely important. If your prof doesn't respect you in at least some way, your 10-year PhD studenthood will be very gruesome, if you finish it at all.
Shemeska
Adventurer
Well I can't speak for the math department at UNC-Chapel Hill, I was in the chemistry department there for my undergrad work, but I will say this... The people there, that entire city has NO GRIP ON REALITY! The people are nutters through and through who live in a fantasy of their own making. I would have gone nuts if I'd gone there for grad school. The folks in the science departments are fine and intelligent folks, but when the school calls itself a liberal arts institution they REALLY mean liberal when they say that.
Somewhere left of Che and Castro liberal, and I don't exaggerate in alot of cases when I say that from the hilarity I saw over my undergrad experience there.
So the math department may indeed be great, being one of the likely not insane programs run by 60's commune living rejects who live to proselytize to their students from their podiums.
Somewhere left of Che and Castro liberal, and I don't exaggerate in alot of cases when I say that from the hilarity I saw over my undergrad experience there.
So the math department may indeed be great, being one of the likely not insane programs run by 60's commune living rejects who live to proselytize to their students from their podiums.
Clueless
Webmonkey
For once you'll see me agree with the fuzzy one.
UNC-CH - while good for an education - the people leave something (ok - a LOT of things) to be desired. Administration tends to be mean, the majority of students with notable exceptions seem to be spoiled, rich and far too willing to nose into your business if you aren't meeting their own standards of thought. Irregardless of the distance between their standards and mainstream standards. Up to and including parking hassles, the place is... not nice to live in.
If all you're worried about is having a good degree then sure - its a decent place for that. But quality of living is a much different thing.
If you really want to look at NC, I suggest NCSU (and no - I don't dislike UNC simply b/c I go to State - it's based off of visiting the campus, and multiple friends who attend there past and current). State is the engineering college, and has some remarkably *nice* doctorate level professors in the math department. The administration and populace also has a tendancy towards nice people.
UNC-CH - while good for an education - the people leave something (ok - a LOT of things) to be desired. Administration tends to be mean, the majority of students with notable exceptions seem to be spoiled, rich and far too willing to nose into your business if you aren't meeting their own standards of thought. Irregardless of the distance between their standards and mainstream standards. Up to and including parking hassles, the place is... not nice to live in.
If all you're worried about is having a good degree then sure - its a decent place for that. But quality of living is a much different thing.
If you really want to look at NC, I suggest NCSU (and no - I don't dislike UNC simply b/c I go to State - it's based off of visiting the campus, and multiple friends who attend there past and current). State is the engineering college, and has some remarkably *nice* doctorate level professors in the math department. The administration and populace also has a tendancy towards nice people.
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Old Fezziwig
Thanks for the sour persimmons, cousin.
So, Shemeska, tell us how you really feel. My experiences here have been different, but no beef. Just some thoughts and what not on my experiences with grad school and applying to it. You can take this for what it's worth (I've tried to keep it as general as possible, but I'm an English person, so that's where I'm coming from).
Make sure that, wherever you go, it's a place you can live and be happy. If you do stay for your PhD, you'll be there for a while. At the same time, don't feel tied down to a program just because you started it—if at any point you feel like it's not your bag, be big enough to admit it and walk away.
Depending on how much funding is available in your department (I'm in the English dept. here and we have a lot of grad students—nowhere near enough money to fund all of them, even if there weren't budget issues in NC), be prepared to work a second job, take out significant loans, or to just scrape by for a bit (extra cheese, free food, free beer—these are all your friends). I would, also, suggest carefully thinking about the packages you'll be offered for grad school—my recommendation is not to bother with a place that doesn't offer you funding. That might be a little hardline, but my financial/work situation has been (at times) wicked rough and I've had funding.
The other thing you may wish to consider—take at least a year or so off. I didn't want to when I graduated in 2001, ended up doing it, and it was the best thing I did. Some people will disagree, but some departments really feel that you aren't a serious student if you go straight through from undergrad (the line being "how can you be sure this is what you want to do? how do we know you're not doing this simply because you've been in school all your life and this seems like a good idea now?" or something like that). I don't know you or your situation, but it's something that all my advisors mentioned to me when I applied and it's something I've heard about here, too. You won't necessarily lose anything by taking time off, getting a job, making some money, and going back to school. Just a thought.
If your advisors/recommenders have thoughts or reactions to where you're applying (strong reactions, either positive or negative), ask why and then do some more research about the situation. If you hear that departmental politics are vicious at a certain school, find out what the situation is. If you hear bad things about the graduate students at a school, check it out. When I told one professor I was applying to the University of X, her response was "why in the world would you want to apply there?"—that sort of reaction should be checked out, especially in cases where it's a good program (X has an excellent English dept. historically, but some folks feel like it's coasting on reputation right now). I had other professors push me away from some other schools and their English departments. Find out what the "word on the street" is and if there's any fire behind the smoke. These are things that could really change your experience as a grad student in major ways and could effect the value of your degree when you get out and start looking for a job. I can't emphasize this one enough, really. If the environment's going to suck or hurt your job prospects, it isn't worth it. I've been fortunate that the grad students here in my department have been really nice and helpful—there isn't a lot of sniping and backbiting between the students, which makes a huge amount of difference.
Anyhow, just some thoughts. Hope it helps and all Good luck with your apps and what not, orbitalfreak.
Best,
tKL
Edit: Removed name of school. No need to crack on other English departments.
My experiences here have been different, but no beef. Just some thoughts and what not on my experiences with grad school and applying to it. You can take this for what it's worth (I've tried to keep it as general as possible, but I'm an English person, so that's where I'm coming from).Make sure that, wherever you go, it's a place you can live and be happy. If you do stay for your PhD, you'll be there for a while. At the same time, don't feel tied down to a program just because you started it—if at any point you feel like it's not your bag, be big enough to admit it and walk away.
Depending on how much funding is available in your department (I'm in the English dept. here and we have a lot of grad students—nowhere near enough money to fund all of them, even if there weren't budget issues in NC), be prepared to work a second job, take out significant loans, or to just scrape by for a bit (extra cheese, free food, free beer—these are all your friends). I would, also, suggest carefully thinking about the packages you'll be offered for grad school—my recommendation is not to bother with a place that doesn't offer you funding. That might be a little hardline, but my financial/work situation has been (at times) wicked rough and I've had funding.
The other thing you may wish to consider—take at least a year or so off. I didn't want to when I graduated in 2001, ended up doing it, and it was the best thing I did. Some people will disagree, but some departments really feel that you aren't a serious student if you go straight through from undergrad (the line being "how can you be sure this is what you want to do? how do we know you're not doing this simply because you've been in school all your life and this seems like a good idea now?" or something like that). I don't know you or your situation, but it's something that all my advisors mentioned to me when I applied and it's something I've heard about here, too. You won't necessarily lose anything by taking time off, getting a job, making some money, and going back to school. Just a thought.
If your advisors/recommenders have thoughts or reactions to where you're applying (strong reactions, either positive or negative), ask why and then do some more research about the situation. If you hear that departmental politics are vicious at a certain school, find out what the situation is. If you hear bad things about the graduate students at a school, check it out. When I told one professor I was applying to the University of X, her response was "why in the world would you want to apply there?"—that sort of reaction should be checked out, especially in cases where it's a good program (X has an excellent English dept. historically, but some folks feel like it's coasting on reputation right now). I had other professors push me away from some other schools and their English departments. Find out what the "word on the street" is and if there's any fire behind the smoke. These are things that could really change your experience as a grad student in major ways and could effect the value of your degree when you get out and start looking for a job. I can't emphasize this one enough, really. If the environment's going to suck or hurt your job prospects, it isn't worth it. I've been fortunate that the grad students here in my department have been really nice and helpful—there isn't a lot of sniping and backbiting between the students, which makes a huge amount of difference.
Anyhow, just some thoughts. Hope it helps and all Good luck with your apps and what not, orbitalfreak.
Best,
tKL
Edit: Removed name of school. No need to crack on other English departments.
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Iron Sheep
First Post
I went to UCLA for my PhD, and I'd recommend the math department there. I graduated in '97, so things may have changed a bit, but there was a lot of cameraderie amongst the students, and the student-faculty relations were very good. Plus its has a very good reputation, and you can find top-notch researchers in many fields.
That said, if you know someone or some particular area that you want to work in, go where that person is, or where there is a group of specialists. If you are unsure what field you want to go into, you are better off going to a big, comprehensive university with a large math department and PhD program (UCLA fits this, as do most of the UC schools, UTexas, many of the SUNYs, U of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, in fact state university systems of large states are good places to look for this).
Also, talk to the faculty at your current university - they will know people and may be able to make recommendations (and write in support of your application), which greatly improves your chances of getting support.
Hope this helps.
Corran
(an assistant prof. at UNLV)
That said, if you know someone or some particular area that you want to work in, go where that person is, or where there is a group of specialists. If you are unsure what field you want to go into, you are better off going to a big, comprehensive university with a large math department and PhD program (UCLA fits this, as do most of the UC schools, UTexas, many of the SUNYs, U of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, in fact state university systems of large states are good places to look for this).
Also, talk to the faculty at your current university - they will know people and may be able to make recommendations (and write in support of your application), which greatly improves your chances of getting support.
Hope this helps.
Corran
(an assistant prof. at UNLV)
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Old Fezziwig
Thanks for the sour persimmons, cousin.
Clueless said:
This actually reminds me of a few things about UNC-CH (I really like living here, but these things bear some thought):
(1) Forget parking and forget ever bringing a car onto campus or into town. Ain't going to happen, except maybe at 2 in the morning on a Monday night, and probably not then either.
(2) The undergrads are a bit of a trip—something to be thinking about if you'll be teaching them.
(3) Chapel Hill is not cheap. I lived in Boston before this and I'm now paying more for everything except rent (and I make up the difference in all my other bills—which are just phone, water, electricity, and liability insurance). I've been just squeaking by down here for the most part.
I've generally had good experiences with the people down here, but I haven't had to wrangle with the administration or had any odd experiences with my classmates.
Best,
tKL
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