(OT sort of) Help dealing with a player over the edge

[Zappo]

A good post, takyris. Personally, I'm used to apply the Big Sword of Merciless Logic to everything including religion. Probably that's why I'm atheist and why I have a hard time understanding the concept of faith. In my eyes, any god is outside reality and in a realm where you have to believe without proof or even against proof. But at that point, in the denial of logic, any consideration of "validity" can only be wholly subjective. And if validity is subjective... the kid could very well not be mad.

After all, if he grew up, founded a religion, converted a few hundred people, and the whole thing went on for a couple of centuries until after D&D has been long forgotten, then surely Cuthbertism would be an accepted religion. Why should it be acceptable in this scenario and not in the current one? Number of followers and time of existance certainly aren't the meter of validity.

OTOH, he could just be nuts.

 

[Nightfall]

Sounds like a lost little boy...

To those that say "Well as long as he's not hurting anyone..." that's how most people started out. After all Jeffery Dahmer started with a fascination for dead animals...Not that I think this kid would go that far. But still, it's not a good way to start.

Stoney, my advice, talk to the kid. Be sensitive but also explain to him that, while many things are possible, such made up deities might not be real. Fantasy is nice (god knows there are times I'd trade in this world for Scarn a heart beat at times.) But this IS the world we live in. That we are apart of. Where some times, good and evil, magic, and demons...while convinent in roleplay don't always help in deal with real world decisions, like who we are and what we stand for.

 

[takyris]

Personally, I'm used to apply the Big Sword of Merciless Logic to everything including religion. Probably that's why I'm atheist and why I have a hard time understanding the concept of faith.

An excellent point. Faith ain't a problem for me, but the Big Sword of Merciless Logic is going to cut right through it. Possibly, in geek terms, because the Big Sword is great at whacking things that are in the real world, but faith ain't in the real world. In the scope of this discussion, it's an incorporeal creature -- and Logic ain't magical or a force effect. As I said, possibly.

(Again, my opinion, and only such.)

In my eyes, any god is outside reality and in a realm where you have to believe without proof or even against proof. But at that point, in the denial of logic, any consideration of "validity" can only be wholly subjective. And if validity is subjective... the kid could very well not be mad.

True. There's definitely a point where it gets subjective and tricky and such. My argument is that we're nowhere near that point -- that if he is serious, anybody with a firm handle on reality is going to agree that he has issues that need to be dealt with, just on the off chance that he might suddenly decide to shoot Ronald Reagan to prove how much he loved Jodie Foster or something. Or just to help him avoid growing up alone and ostracized because he took a wrong turn and went a little bit too far into the depths of the reality-denial neighborhoods of geekville.

Number of followers and time of existance certainly aren't the meter of validity.

True. It's what you think you're worshipping. If it came out tomorrow that Jesus had been a popular fable told in taverns by long-haired guys to try and get chicks into bed, it would be interesting to see what happened next in terms of world religions.

But we're not dealing with that situation, or yours -- although it's definitely interesting (and I think several SF shows have dealt with it with varying degrees of success). If your Big Sword of Merciless Logic isn't too big for dual-wielding, might I suggest using Occam's Razor as an off-hand weapon?

Which is more likely? That he's stumbled into the True God, or a mode of powerful belief that just happened to come from the flavor text of the Player's Handbook, and that St. Cuthbert (or the power of the lad's belief in St. Cuthbert and his ideals) is a real and true and spiritually fulfilling and healthy thing?

Or that he's a lonely dude who needs to go play outside for a bit?

OTOH, he could just be nuts.

-Tacky

 

[Mulkhoran]

To those of you saying that those of us saying that "He's not hurting anyone" is not a valid point, and that we should assume that this is just the beginning of an unhealthy slide into unreality, and he's going to kill himself, and all sorts of other pleasant conjecture:

How many of you are licensed physicians?

Because if you're not, then you're just speculating wildly, about predictors of future behavior. Not that you're NOT speculating wildly already.

Talk to him. But before you talk to anyone else about him, consider what you're doing. Consider the effects of betrayal, or things that feel like betrayal, on an already unstable psyche.

Don't push your friend over the edge. Friendship is trust, above all else.

 

[mythago]

By "licensed physician" I assume you mean "professionally qualified to dispense advise about what is psychologically normal." (That includes some nonphysicians, like psychologists, but excludes many licensed physicians. I don't know about you, but I'm not taking mental-health advice from my gynecologist.)

Even someone who is professionally qualified is not going to dispense a diagnosis on a third-hand messageboard post.

That said, since we've established that EVERYONE here is speculating wildly: counseling might be in order. If this is a harmless religious turn, that's fine; if the guy's grip on reality is getting slippery, that's a whole different matter. I'd look for signs of the latter before I got really worried.

 

[Mulkhoran]

counseling might be in order. If this is a harmless religious turn, that's fine;

This is exactly my point. People trying to adjudicate when someone else needs counseling. Involuntary counseling is usually useless, and forcing someone into it does more harm than good.

if the guy's grip on reality is getting slippery, that's a whole different matter. I'd look for signs of the latter before I got really worried.

I'd look for signs he was going to do harm to himself or others, the tried and true mechanic for counselors across the nation, and indeed the world.

 

[Umbran]

To those that say "Well as long as he's not hurting anyone..." that's how most people started out. After all Jeffery Dahmer started with a fascination for dead animals...Not that I think this kid would go that far. But still, it's not a good way to start.

I'll repeat - 16 year olds world-wide do things as odd every day. Odd behavior is part and parcel of being a teen! How many people do we start to put in counselling?

Really, folks, think for a second. We live in a culture that thinks it reasonably okay for grown adults to strip to the waist, cover themselves in body paint and stand about for hours in midwinter cold in worship to a sports team! And we label this kid as weird?

Yep - we who have dice superstitions, going so far as to "punish" pieces of inanimate plastic when they fail to meet our wants - we call a kid weird for thinking on a relevant symbol for a football game. That's perspective for ya.

Back when I was in junior high, my gaming group had a little pantheon all it's own. It included "The Great Gumbala", god of junk food. His main nemesis was Jack LaLane. Before each session, the GM found the biggest chip in the bag, did a little chant, and tossed it over the nearest boundary (a hedge, out a door, what have you) as a sacrifice. Not one of us has committed a felony in the many years since.

As to the validity of religion- useful symbols are where you find them. Lots of folks follow paths that are clearly made up out of whole cloth. That doesn't mean it's false. One finds good symbols wherever one can. It doesn't matter that it's 2000 years old, or 20, or 2. The question is if it works for you. If the kid actually does find a measure of focus in saying a prayer, more power to him!

Thus endeth my rant.