Our new tag, AND Alternate FIrearms systems?

[Henry]

First, I started this thread mainly to show off our fancy new "d20 Modern" tag (it's temp, but it's a start, and a replacement tag will go in the same slot anyway).

Second, I wanted to know how much success any of you have had with more varied weapon damage than what is given in the d20 Modern firearms tables? Given that 2d4/2d6/2d8 is -- well, kinda -- BORING, have any of you tried any other charts for firearms damages that were a little more varied, but STILL keeping the Modern Massive Damage rules?

I've thought of going to the charts used in the Call of Cthulhu game (BRP version, not the d20 one), or to the charts from Delta Green (also for CoC). Any thoughts on this, or helpful house rules?

I like the system mechanics, but the firearms looking like cookie cutters of one another statistically uninspires my players greatly.

 

[Gez]

2d4/3d4/4d4/5d4/etc.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don`t think there is much need for more variety in damage.
The variety of the weapon is given in: size, ammo, fire mode, range, weight, purchase DC. Three of these aspects are not appliciable for regular D&D weapons, so there you have the oppertunity to create variety.

And I think the fact that many weapons are statistically the same allows for more roleplaying in the decision what weapon a character choses - you can look at the weapons picture (well, at least if they would be labeled in the D20 Modern - but that`s what the Ultramodern Firearms book can do for you), and chose what you like, knowing that any other weapon will probably do the same, mechanically.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[takyris]

The advantage to alternate weapons systems is that, like in 2nd-edition D&D, you could choose a khopesh or bola or something to differentiate yourself.

The disadvantage to alternate weapons systems is that everyone will gravitate to the best weapon.

As it is, I can make a character with a revolver, two small handguns, one big-honking handgun, or an automatic pistol and not feel like I'm giving myself a roleplaying boost at the cost of a mechanical penalty.

Or, in other words, what Ridcully said.

But I'm interested in hearing how other systems have worked for people.

 

[Henry]

And I think the fact that many weapons are statistically the same allows for more roleplaying in the decision what weapon a character choses - you can look at the weapons picture (well, at least if they would be labeled in the D20 Modern - but that`s what the Ultramodern Firearms book can do for you), and chose what you like, knowing that any other weapon will probably do the same, mechanically.

That's the part my players and I don't like, because the weapon begins to become just a "generic damage dealing unit," instead of a distinct piece of hardware. One thing I love about D&D is the weapon's handedness, special abilities, etc. The problem is that D&D PC's have equally valid reasons for using simple, martial, exotic, etc. weapons. However, firearms make up 90% of what the party carries to the field when they expect trouble. The difference between glaives, halberds, and longspears involve reach, damage, and tripping abilities; d20 Modern firearms involve damage, size, and range. Purchase price is not as big a factor, though, due to the flexible nature of that for most campaigns.

As an aside, I have Ultamodern Forearms - and the statting of the FN Arms Five-seven made it the end-all and be-all of firearms. Pistol that fires rifle ammo, 20 shots per mag, 40 ft range increment, and only DC18 or so - once you can afford it, there's no reason to buy anything else. But overall, the book is nicely drawn and statted, it's just too sparse for me. Books like Cthulhu now are the standard I like to see, it's just a shame that the Modern damage rules don't allow an extremely wide spread for weapon damages.

 

[nobodez]

Well...

there are only so many calibers of ammunition, and only so many ways to express that.

Also, in regards to the 5-7, it's a great gun and all, but there are a few restrictions that need to be brought to light. First, there are only two guns in the entire world that use that caliber, the Five-seveN and the P90. Second, if a Gm does any research on the 5.7mm family, they will realize that both should have a Mil(+3) license, since they are only sold to cops and militaries. Third, Twenty rounds is great, but I prefer handguns with 100 round clips (see the Calico 950 and it's SMG, the 960a), for my high capacity handguns.

As to my favorite guns, they'd have to be the Calico 950 and 960a (for handguns and SMGs), the OICW (for assault rifles), the Barrett M82A2 (rifles), and the Daewoo USAS-12 (shotgun). If the OICW isn't allowed (for temporal reasons), I'd go for the HKG3 SG/1 (an assault rifle that's so good, it's a sniper rifle).

Okay, so, back on topic. I'd recommend that if you don't like the damage rules as presented in the MCRB, or UMF, move the 10mm to 2d6+1, and the .41, 5.7mm, and .40S&W to 2d8-1. Though, there's just not a lot of room for moving the damages around, and if you move to more than 2 dice, the damage curve moves even more to the center, and starts at 3, not 2.

 

[Elwolf]

Long time lurker here ...

Henry, what about checking out the Modern Arms Guide for Spycraft? I'm just having a look through one of the excel-based character sheets for Spycraft over at Modus Operandi that has all the weapons from MAG in it, and they seem to have a much wider damage range of dice that d20M does, along with various special qualities for the weapons as well.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's the part my players and I don't like, because the weapon begins to become just a "generic damage dealing unit," instead of a distinct piece of hardware. One thing I love about D&D is the weapon's handedness, special abilities, etc. The problem is that D&D PC's have equally valid reasons for using simple, martial, exotic, etc. weapons. However, firearms make up 90% of what the party carries to the field when they expect trouble. The difference between glaives, halberds, and longspears involve reach, damage, and tripping abilities; d20 Modern firearms involve damage, size, and range. Purchase price is not as big a factor, though, due to the flexible nature of that for most campaigns.

As an aside, I have Ultamodern Forearms - and the statting of the FN Arms Five-seven made it the end-all and be-all of firearms. Pistol that fires rifle ammo, 20 shots per mag, 40 ft range increment, and only DC18 or so - once you can afford it, there's no reason to buy anything else. But overall, the book is nicely drawn and statted, it's just too sparse for me. Books like Cthulhu now are the standard I like to see, it's just a shame that the Modern damage rules don't allow an extremely wide spread for weapon damages.

Well, the Ultramodern Firearms has its weaknesses (this is not the only one).

I don`t think there is so much diversity in D&D - most fighter types use either some exotic sword (bastard) or axe (Dwarfen Waraxe), or they use a Greatsword (occassianally a reach weapon)
Rogues rely on Daggers or Rapiers, and the only other common weapon is the Mighty Composite Longbow. Clerics use Morning Stars or a Mace, Wizards and Sorceror a Quarterstaff. (but the last two do not really use them, they just carry them around )

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Henry]

Well, I've seen a little more diversity than that in my games, because I've seen fighters who do spectacular things with Morning Stars (the player liked being able to do either piercing or bludgeoning), I've seen scythe and pick-wielders (guys just HOPING to do that magic x4 crit), and several other oddities. Part of it was "style," but the thing that made the weapons stand out was a unique damage, or unique mechanic.

When we play Modern, we don't mind using the weapons as statted (I have dropped the range on a five-seven back to 30 in our games, citing the innacuracy of a pistol barrel versus the rifle barrel of a P90 as my "flimsy excuse', and that put the weapon back from being so perfect in-game), but I still look for an alternative with a little more variety.


One thing's for sure - If I use CoC gun stats, it will definitely make the guns deadlier, forcing massive damage save more often; then again, that may not be a bad thing - it might discourage firefights a little more.