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D&D 5E Out of Combat Utility Analysis

So far, a major ressource of the "exploration pillar" has been overlooked : hit points. They are the main resource for mitigating failures and partial successes while tackling environmental hazards (traps, weather, random encounters, falls, etc.). Don't underestimate the fighter, he's a tough bastard :)
Also, without summoning, manpower is a valuable resource, and the one-man-army wizard of old is defenitely experiencing a serious nerf.

This is actually a pretty good point and it applies to 4e as well. In 5e, the Exhaustion Track appears to revolve pretty much exclusively around checks or increments related to Constitution Saving Throws or Constitution Bonus. The Fighter will naturally be more robust than other classes to resisting getting on and moving down the Exhaustion Track. GMs that make heavy use of those rules (IME you should be if you're going to be playing the system) will find their Fighters providing solid group support there. They'll also anchor Constitution Group Checks (just as 4e's Endurance).

I didn't mention it in my above post, but Endurance training, high Constitution, Fort defense, and huge number of Healing Surges helps Fighter's tremendously in nonviolent, physical conflict resolution in 4e in the same way that it does in 5e. Fighters are much less apt to be afflicted by a Disease/Condition/Hazard attack, they're much more apt to recover quickly from a Disease/Condition that actually afflicts them, and their large number of Surges means that they can withstand more environmental punishment that charges HS loss as a consequence of exposure or Skill Challenge failure.
 

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LOL, sadly I cannot XP.

It's as if millions of chamberlains suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

LOL. Legitimate out loud laughter.

There are a lot of unknowns right now. I'm going to wait until the PH and probably the DMG before committing.

I will say I agree, based on the system we have seen so far.

I found 1e steps outside the bounds of "... spellcasting system will be the primary determinate of noncombat conflict resolution in 5e (just as it did in all editions prior to 4e)". A co-determinant is magic item acquisition. Based upon leading statements of the developers wanting to reduce the importance of magic items, I am not optimistic they will materially affect the imbalance this time.

A further mitigation at higher levels is the type of followers and hirelings that can be attracted (i.e. sages will not accept long-term employment from Magic-Users, henchmen help broaden every character's abilities). This is an area that has fallen out of favour though.

Anyway, I'm hoping to be surprised.

I think I'll go ahead and get on the agreement train with the above here. However, (1) I expect there to be an attempt at a robust hireling/follower module if it isn't in the base rules (at least there should be). If they do and they pull it off, as you state, that would definitely help to mitigate things. (2) This is mostly a request for clarification. I can't recall if the devs said that they were going to make magic items less important or they were just going to reduce their impact on the math of the system (eg limited + inflation)? Is it the former or the latter? I've seen some forum user suggestions that rings of protection and other magic items are supposed to be the band-aid for the saving throw proficiency problem. If its the latter then obviously the devs would disagree with them.
 

Playing D&D is usually not about "winning", but having a good time. In that context, a Fighter can be just as fun to play as a Wizard and not a bad choice.

In that context, he can also be a very bad choice, because he can do so much less in two of the pillars than a Wizard, but the Wizard can do just as much in the Fighter's "specialty pillar", and only an experienced D&D player will anticipate that, and only an experienced D&D player will even expect this to be an issue, because in other RPGs and CRPGs, it isn't.

Real team games (of which D&D is not one) are a pretty crap comparison, because there isn't a team game played much outside of the USA where you have this kind of disparity. The only game I can think of that makes any kind of worthwhile analogy here is American Football. Basketball is an awful analogy.

EDIT - The current situation also appears to contradict what Mearls was claiming about 5E's design, which was basically that the Fighter would be a "master of combat", and thus gimped elsewhere to account for that, and that other classes wouldn't be so masterful in combat.

If we compare the Fighter we have here to well, almost any Playtest Fighter, he's inferior in combat (by a huge margin compared to a lot of the Playtest Fighters), and equal to or inferior outside combat, and further, the Wizard is actually much better at combat than most of the Playtest Wizards, yet has not lost any power in the other pillars.

This is actually a pretty good point and it applies to 4e as well. In 5e, the Exhaustion Track appears to revolve pretty much exclusively around checks or increments related to Constitution Saving Throws or Constitution Bonus. The Fighter will naturally be more robust than other classes to resisting getting on and moving down the Exhaustion Track. GMs that make heavy use of those rules (IME you should be if you're going to be playing the system) will find their Fighters providing solid group support there. They'll also anchor Constitution Group Checks (just as 4e's Endurance).

I don't think it is a good point, actually.

Exhaustion checks seems extremely unlikely to come up in normal D&D play. Even less likely at high levels. Only a strange sort of "badly-planned, low-on-magic, wilderness excursion" game do they seem likely to be a regular thing, like, even every other session. I'd love to hear you explain how they'd come up regularly or how DMs could "make heavy use of them" without a lot of bizarre situations. Further, being the one guy who isn't affected doesn't help the group in a proactive way, just means you're slightly less screwed.

Further, Fighters don't really have that many more HP than anyone else, unless we're getting in to some kind of abuse of Second Wind. Now, if it's intended that Second Wind is abused for all it's worth, and that is the SECRET OF BALANCING FIGHTERS (TM), then, first off, I want to hear that from WotC, but second off, wow that's a weird way of balancing things.

Unless you do kind of abuse Second Wind, Fighters will barely have more HP than anyone, and anyway, people who have less HP are just more likely to attract healing from the Cleric, or burn resources like Healing Potions. Being "the last man standing" is, in my experience, in D&D, generally not very helpful. It's also completely reactionary and reactive, rather than proactive, like spells and skills.

I didn't mention it in my above post, but Endurance training, high Constitution, Fort defense, and huge number of Healing Surges helps Fighter's tremendously in nonviolent, physical conflict resolution in 4e in the same way that it does in 5e. Fighters are much less apt to be afflicted by a Disease/Condition/Hazard attack, they're much more apt to recover quickly from a Disease/Condition that actually afflicts them, and their large number of Surges means that they can withstand more environmental punishment that charges HS loss as a consequence of exposure or Skill Challenge failure.

That's all true in 4E, but all those challenges were, in my experience, relative rare in 4E, and Fighters were not at all especially good at them, ANY character with Endurance skill, High CON, decent Fort, and lots of HSes was good at them. Fighters were not the leaders in ANY of those areas. Wardens were better or equal at what, all of those things? Fightbrains too, I think.

None of that yet appears to have comparable stuff in 5E, though perhaps the PHB and DMG will combine to change that (bet diseases etc. are in the DMG, not PHB), but they'd need to be pretty common to make this an issue.
 
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LOL. Legitimate out loud laughter.



I think I'll go ahead and get on the agreement train with the above here. However, (1) I expect there to be an attempt at a robust hireling/follower module if it isn't in the base rules (at least there should be). If they do and they pull it off, as you state, that would definitely help to mitigate things. (2) This is mostly a request for clarification. I can't recall if the devs said that they were going to make magic items less important or they were just going to reduce their impact on the math of the system (eg limited + inflation)? Is it the former or the latter? I've seen some forum user suggestions that rings of protection and other magic items are supposed to be the band-aid for the saving throw proficiency problem. If its the latter then obviously the devs would disagree with them.

These are old quotes (2012) and so the positions may have evolved. The quotes are from a L&L article (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120702#80992).

"First, we don't assume magic items are part of a character's abilities. The math behind the system assumes that you receive only the specific abilities and bonuses granted by your character class and race."

He does go on to talk about how magic items will provide wholly unique abilities in the article however.

I won't get into saving throw math here. I think I beat that to death; rings of protection +3 won't be the saviour though.
 

Magic items were a mitigating factor of the "LFQW" effect in 1e... and an aggravating factor of it in 3e, with the Item creation feats.
Also, I have forgotten to mention the better stats and better saves of the Fighter in 5e (which looks an awful lot like 1e !)
In 3e, a fighter was a liability for the party. In 5e, I believe it's a fundamental asset, to the point I can't imagine a party without one (and I would bet it's a good solo class too). Of course, they don't get to play with the big wizardly toys, but Class/niche protection goes both way !
 

I won't get into saving throw math here. I think I beat that to death; rings of protection +3 won't be the saviour though.
Since magic items in general won't be affecting the "math", I'd expect to see defensive items that provide a class of protections, or limited immunities.

Say, a ring of fire protection that provides constant resistance to fire damage. Or a helmet of mental protection that lets you automatically succeed at 3 Wisdom saves a day.
 

These are old quotes (2012) and so the positions may have evolved. The quotes are from a L&L article (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120702#80992).

"First, we don't assume magic items are part of a character's abilities. The math behind the system assumes that you receive only the specific abilities and bonuses granted by your character class and race."

He does go on to talk about how magic items will provide wholly unique abilities in the article however.

That jives with my memory (I'm certain I read that article). Magic items will be more math-neutral than preceding editions and they'll be "shifting the design approach of wondrous items to the rest of the system." There will be no wealth by level expectation as well, so only GMing advice will speak to whether or not they expect magic items (boots/helms of flying, etc) to make up the difference between spellcasters and mundanes at high levels (as in 1e).

I won't get into saving throw math here. I think I beat that to death; rings of protection +3 won't be the saviour though.

I didn't mean to bring that up as thread coat-rack, merely just a related aside. Nonetheless, they surely won't make up the difference. I'll leave it at that.
 

Magic items were a mitigating factor of the "LFQW" effect in 1e... and an aggravating factor of it in 3e, with the Item creation feats.
Also, I have forgotten to mention the better stats and better saves of the Fighter in 5e (which looks an awful lot like 1e !)
In 3e, a fighter was a liability for the party. In 5e, I believe it's a fundamental asset, to the point I can't imagine a party without one (and I would bet it's a good solo class too). Of course, they don't get to play with the big wizardly toys, but Class/niche protection goes both way !


There are no longer any good solo classes. The probability of saving throw failure is too high. D'oh! My button got pushed!
 

Since magic items in general won't be affecting the "math", I'd expect to see defensive items that provide a class of protections, or limited immunities.

Say, a ring of fire protection that provides constant resistance to fire damage. Or a helmet of mental protection that lets you automatically succeed at 3 Wisdom saves a day.

Perhaps. It is one of the reasons I need to wait for the rest of the books. The potential design space is too large to guess at what the designers will choose.
 

<snip>

I didn't mean to bring that up as thread coat-rack, merely just a related aside. Nonetheless, they surely won't make up the difference. I'll leave it at that.

I think I get the gist, but what is a thread coat-rack? I haven't seen the term before.
 

Into the Woods

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