D&D 5E Out of Combat Utility Analysis

[Ruin Explorer]

I'll take a stab.

He's specifically stating that 5E doesn't do whatever it is he's talking about, whereas 5E does most of that.

 

[Obryn]

Two things. First, say the wizard casts 4 level 2 spells in combat throughout the day. Then he needs to cast Comprehend Languages. Party's screwed! Oh wait, no, he can just use a level 3 slot. You can prepare 25 spells, cast 10...and you will will have 25 spells prepared.

Second, if you do get to the point that the wizard is running low on spell slots at the higher levels...that means that the wizard has been pulling more than their share of weight and absolutely dominating things with powerful, campaign and combat trivializing effects. The more spells they cast, the less flexible they become, but that also means that the more value they've added to the party.

You're overlooking rituals. Rituals never reduce a caster's utility in an upcoming fight. They don't even need to be prepared.

 

[TwoSix]

You're overlooking rituals. Rituals never reduce a caster's utility in an upcoming fight. They don't even need to be prepared.

For the wizard. That isn't true of the other classes. Still, with the amount of spells that can be prepared, it's not a major liability.

 

[Cyberen]

So far, a major ressource of the "exploration pillar" has been overlooked : hit points. They are the main resource for mitigating failures and partial successes while tackling environmental hazards (traps, weather, random encounters, falls, etc.). Don't underestimate the fighter, he's a tough bastard
Also, without summoning, manpower is a valuable resource, and the one-man-army wizard of old is defenitely experiencing a serious nerf.

 

[Manbearcat]

He's specifically stating that 5E doesn't do whatever it is he's talking about, whereas 5E does most of that.

I think you are right. The OP has, in my opinion, overstated the value of spells/rituals and understated the value of skills. The calculations are also done at level 20, if they had been done at level 1, the story would have been quite different. How "broken" this is really relies on what level range you are playing. Personally, I enjoy level 3-7 the most. In that range the "problem" is much less pronounced

<snip>

4e reduced this "broken-ness", but it also made the game much duller in many players opinion. That 5e hasn't gone the same route is something I applaud. D&D isn't a competition, it's a team game and usually, the different characters help each other out a lot.

Please explain how 4E "reduced this broken-ness"?

Blackbrrd was commenting on the analysis in the OP and its implied conclusion; 5e's skill/task resolution system does not allow mundane characters to achieve relative parity (or anything close to it) in the utility dept with those characters who leverage the spellcasting and ritual system.

He referred to that paradigm as "broken." He then went on to comment how "4e reduced this broken-ness". I was just volunteering an unpacking of that comment!

As to the original post's analysis, while I agree with the OP's premise, those numbers seem somewhat arbitrarily inflated (in the favor of his premise) and pretty wobbly under scrutiny. False precision. The spellcasting system will be the primary determinate of noncombat conflict resolution in 5e (just as it did in all editions prior to 4e), but I can't imagine it will be to the same degree given some of the changes. But that is an admittedly shallow analysis by myself, supported only by past experience and extrapolation. I have no 1st party experience with the edition at mid to high levels. Nonetheless, I stand by it. I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat as I am; fundamentally agreeing with the premise due to lots of experience and extrapolation but no 1st party experience with the ruleset at mid/endgame.

 

[TwoSix]

I have no 1st party experience with the edition at mid to high levels. Nonetheless, I stand by it. I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat as I am; fundamentally agreeing with the premise due to lots of experience and extrapolation but no 1st party experience with the ruleset at mid/endgame.

And let's be honest; even with firsthand experience of a ruleset, people arrive at vastly different conclusions based on their own table experiences, expectations, and biases.

 

[Manbearcat]

And let's be honest; even with firsthand experience of a ruleset, people arrive at vastly different conclusions based on their own table experiences, expectations, and biases.

Are you trying to say that somewhere in this world there are multiple threads at 100 + pages on LFQW that have gone absolutely nowhere beyond NU UH, YEAH HUH!??

WHATWHATWHAT!?

 

[Nagol]

Blackbrrd was commenting on the analysis in the OP and its implied conclusion; 5e's skill/task resolution system does not allow mundane characters to achieve relative parity (or anything close to it) in the utility dept with those characters who leverage the spellcasting and ritual system.

He referred to that paradigm as "broken." He then went on to comment how "4e reduced this broken-ness". I was just volunteering an unpacking of that comment!

As to the original post's analysis, while I agree with the OP's premise, those numbers seem somewhat arbitrarily inflated (in the favor of his premise) and pretty wobbly under scrutiny. False precision. The spellcasting system will be the primary determinate of noncombat conflict resolution in 5e (just as it did in all editions prior to 4e), but I can't imagine it will be to the same degree given some of the changes. But that is an admittedly shallow analysis by myself, supported only by past experience and extrapolation. I have no 1st party experience with the edition at mid to high levels. Nonetheless, I stand by it. I'm pretty sure you're in the same boat as I am; fundamentally agreeing with the premise due to lots of experience and extrapolation but no 1st party experience with the ruleset at mid/endgame.

There are a lot of unknowns right now. I'm going to wait until the PH and probably the DMG before committing.

I will say I agree, based on the system we have seen so far.

I found 1e steps outside the bounds of "... spellcasting system will be the primary determinate of noncombat conflict resolution in 5e (just as it did in all editions prior to 4e)". A co-determinant is magic item acquisition. Based upon leading statements of the developers wanting to reduce the importance of magic items, I am not optimistic they will materially affect the imbalance this time.

A further mitigation at higher levels is the type of followers and hirelings that can be attracted (i.e. sages will not accept long-term employment from Magic-Users, henchmen help broaden every character's abilities). This is an area that has fallen out of favour though.

Anyway, I'm hoping to be surprised.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Imagine if this was the attitude of any other hobby.

Basketball, "Sure, the ref gave the other team a an extra 40 points at the start and sure, they get to use their hands and you can't. But c'mon champs, get out their and sink some baskets! Use your head!"

NASCAR, "Sure everyone else is in a high-powered metal cage of rocket-fast death and you're in a bicycle. But they don't get helmets and their cars run on gas. You can pedal all day!"

Politics, "Sure, the dictator has already arrested people on the suspicion of voting for you and sure they shot your running mate. But stop looking at the polls! Shake some hands! Thoroughly kiss those babies!"

I agree with your argument, but not with your analogies that you compare D&D to (my assumption, maybe wrong?).

I would say that D&D is a team game like basket, where the different players (for basket) or characters (for D&D) are unequal. They all work together to make the best team though. That one player or character is better or worse than the others isn't really an issue as long as you work together.

Playing D&D is usually not about "winning", but having a good time. In that context, a Fighter can be just as fun to play as a Wizard and not a bad choice.

 

[TwoSix]

Are you trying to say that somewhere in this world there are multiple threads at 100 + pages on LFQW that have gone absolutely nowhere beyond NU UH, YEAH HUH!??

WHATWHATWHAT!?

LOL, sadly I cannot XP.

It's as if millions of chamberlains suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.