Out of the "Get Hurt, Get Healed" tradition

[Minigiant]

So, as a gameplay issue, if you want the PCs to be pushed to the line in almost every fight, you can't avoid "get hurt, get healed". The only question is what resources (Magical or non-magical? Internal or external?) are used to heal and how long it takes (5 minutes, 15 days, or something in between?) to recover after each fight.

The point is to avoid using "going down to the cradling and healing up" as the only defensive strategy.

You could move the goalposts and use THP. Then Max HP is the new 0 HP.

Or you could avoid trivialize damage because your defenses are so high with AC, DR, Miss chance, etc.

I play a Naruto-like version of 4E with my younger cousins where healing surges don't heal HP, they just make attacks miss through substitutes, contingent teleports, dodges, and parries. It would be interesting to see a character in D&D have an ability where the first X hits are converting into misses through magic or training or something.

 

[FireLance]

The point is to avoid using "going down to the cradling and healing up" as the only defensive strategy.

You could move the goalposts and use THP. Then Max HP is the new 0 HP.

Or you could avoid trivialize damage because your defenses are so high with AC, DR, Miss chance, etc.

I play a Naruto-like version of 4E with my younger cousins where healing surges don't heal HP, they just make attacks miss through substitutes, contingent teleports, dodges, and parries. It would be interesting to see a character in D&D have an ability where the first X hits are converting into misses through magic or training or something.

I suppose you can try to define an initial, softer line (e.g. with temp hp, spending resources to avoid being hit) or to extend the period of being "pushed to the line" with resources that only kick in after being wounded to a certain extent (e.g. higher defences, DR, miss chance), but fundamentally, it's no different from just giving the PCs more hp which are worn down over a series of fights so that they are only really pushed to the line in the final one.

And that's my basic point. If you don't want the PCs pushed to the line in each fight, you don't need the "get hurt, get healed" approach. However, if you do, you can't avoid it.

 

[Minigiant]

I suppose you can try to define an initial, softer line (e.g. with temp hp, spending resources to avoid being hit) or to extend the period of being "pushed to the line" with resources that only kick in after being wounded to a certain extent (e.g. higher defences, DR, miss chance), but fundamentally, it's no different from just giving the PCs more hp which are worn down over a series of fights so that they are only really pushed to the line in the final one.

And that's my basic point. If you don't want the PCs pushed to the line in each fight, you don't need the "get hurt, get healed" approach. However, if you do, you can't avoid it.

In several editions of D&D, avoiding the "help, im gonna die" line is hard. Especially at low levels were one or two spells, obstacles, or hits brings you down to it.

So I hope 5E adds abilities to move the line or make reaching the line not such a big deal.

 

[CleverNickName]

I don't have a problem with the "hurt and heal" dynamic of the game. Until I started hanging out here at EN World, I didn't even know anyone had an issue with it.

It's as much a part of D&D as elves and orcs. I would file it under "Not Broken/Don't Fix."

 

[Mengu]

D&D characters don't really get hurt. Their hit points are depleted, but they are rarely hurt. How often do you see a D&D character with a broken arm? A sprained ankle? A dislocated shoulder? A torn ligament? D&D characters are immune to getting hurt.

They just have these thingies we call hit points, and call for the cleric when they're running low. But actually hurt? Never. A D&D character (or monster) functions just as well at 100 hit points and at 1 hit point.

You could run a game where hit points represent purely luck. When you hit 0 is the only time a blow actually connects and knocks you out. Or you could run a game where PC's have some alien tech that provides them with a force shield, represented by hit points, and certain people (like artificers) can replenish that shield. But you are never really hurt, until someone goes through your personal shield (depleting all your hit points).

So, in hit points, you already have the tool to run a game where PC's don't get hurt.

 

[Minigiant]

[MENTION=50987]CleverNickName[/MENTION] You are lucky. I have seen ten year olds gripe about needing a healer.

@Mangy. I think you are missing my point. I understand what HP are.

My hope is that 5E supports something other than HP yo-yoing up and down. Maybe there could be other core rosources that yo-yo. Or have strategies that lessen the urgency of a slowly diminishing pool of HP.

I've been in a fight before. And I knew there is nobody who will recover some of my reserves during of immediately after it. It would be great if Healing HP being the only good defensive mechanic in D&D.

 

[EvilDwarf]

Many editions of D&D have described the abstracted concept of Hit Points as a combined expression of real damage/injury plus a certain amount of fatigue.

I've never been a fan of trying to track these expressions differently, even those that say something like, It's only the last 10% of your Hit Points that are actually injuries (Is that sort of like Bloodied in 4E??).

We house ruled 3 and 3.5 so that an individual would recover a certain amount of Hit Points that were lost through a variety of circumstances. It was based on level and hit dice. So, for instance, after a battle, a 3rd level fighter might roll 3d10 to see how many HP she recovers, a 3rd level mage would roll 3d4, etc.

Of course, the in-game explanation was a recovery from fatigue, not damage/injury.

This worked well, kept things simple, helped move play along, extended the "work day," except in the case of exceptional rolls kept heroes from returning to full power after each battle/encounter, and there wasn't anything to track except Hit Points.

 

[KidSnide]

I understand the reason for trying to get away from the yo-yo. For all the abstraction of hit points, terms like "hit", "damage" and (even more so) "cure critical wounds" all strongly suggest that hit points are physical damage. There are enough DMs who describe hit points as physical damage that it's hard to say that they are "doing it wrong" per se. (Or, to be more accurate, it's easy to say that they are doing it wrong on the internet, but it would be foolish for WotC to do so.)

Putting aside the question of whether a non-magical warlord should be able to heal damage (or persuade an ally to fight through it even though it isn't healed), even the cleric "magic healing" yo-yo has a serious genre problem: few if any of the heroic fantasy genre conventions that D&D attempts to model involve combats where wounds are magically inflicted, healed, inflicted, healed, inflicted and healed again. Other than stories that take after D&D (e.g. other RPGs and RPG-based books and games), that sort of battlefield healing doesn't really happen.

And then, of course, there are a new set of people who object to non-magical healing (either Inspiring Word or the overnight rest) that heals deadly wounds at implausible speed.

So I understand the motivation for getting away from the healing yo-yo. The problem is that the healing yo-yo is (1) exciting and (2) very D&D. Healing is an essential part of what makes D&D combat fun.

One of the key parts of fun combat is experiencing both the feeling of danger and the feeling of overcoming danger. A key part of that is giving the players in the impression that the PCs are in more danger than they actually are. (Put the PCs in a campaign where they die in 50% of encounters, and you get a very short campaign.) That's why PCs have healing and monsters don't. This gives the PCs the ability to survive for longer than it seems like they should and provides the impression of danger ("I have only 4 hp left!") even if there is a cleric to heal the character up next in the initiative order.

The hit point yo-yo has also been a part of D&D for decades. I think there's a strong argument to be made that battlefield healing should be tuned down and made more like BECMI/1e/2e than the 3e or 4e. But suggesting that D&DN should get rid of it is madness. Elements of D&D that have remained constant across the editions should be preserved, less we end up with a game that's not D&D.

That having been said, I would be very interested to read house rules that produce combat that combines the feeling of danger with the ability to recover for the next encounter without so much of the healing yo-yo effect.

-KS

 

[Minigiant]

I understand the reason for trying to get away from the yo-yo. For all the abstraction of hit points, terms like "hit", "damage" and (even more so) "cure critical wounds" all strongly suggest that hit points are physical damage. There are enough DMs who describe hit points as physical damage that it's hard to say that they are "doing it wrong" per se. (Or, to be more accurate, it's easy to say that they are doing it wrong on the internet, but it would be foolish for WotC to do so.)

Putting aside the question of whether a non-magical warlord should be able to heal damage (or persuade an ally to fight through it even though it isn't healed), even the cleric "magic healing" yo-yo has a serious genre problem: few if any of the heroic fantasy genre conventions that D&D attempts to model involve combats where wounds are magically inflicted, healed, inflicted, healed, inflicted and healed again. Other than stories that take after D&D (e.g. other RPGs and RPG-based books and games), that sort of battlefield healing doesn't really happen.

Yes, D&D pretty much inventing battlefield healing. In most stories, there was HP loss and recovery but it was mostly stamina, divine favor, luck, or morale. Physical HP loss stuck. Rarely was physical damage removed.


[/QUOTE]And then, of course, there are a new set of people who object to non-magical healing (either Inspiring Word or the overnight rest) that heals deadly wounds at implausible speed.

So I understand the motivation for getting away from the healing yo-yo. The problem is that the healing yo-yo is (1) exciting and (2) very D&D. Healing is an essential part of what makes D&D combat fun.

[/quote]

The HP yo-yo is very D&D. Only D&D and inspired works really use it. Some others do too. But "avoid the death spiral" is by far most common.

Here on the real world, "damage" avoidance is king. Us humans try not to get "hurt". We try not to lose any "HP". But damage avoidance is not supported in D&D.

One of the key parts of fun combat is experiencing both the feeling of danger and the feeling of overcoming danger. A key part of that is giving the players in the impression that the PCs are in more danger than they actually are. (Put the PCs in a campaign where they die in 50% of encounters, and you get a very short campaign.) That's why PCs have healing and monsters don't. This gives the PCs the ability to survive for longer than it seems like they should and provides the impression of danger ("I have only 4 hp left!") even if there is a cleric to heal the character up next in the initiative order.

It is exciting but it's not the only way.

The hit point yo-yo has also been a part of D&D for decades. I think there's a strong argument to be made that battlefield healing should be tuned down and made more like BECMI/1e/2e than the 3e or 4e. But suggesting that D&DN should get rid of it is madness. Elements of D&D that have remained constant across the editions should be preserved, less we end up with a game that's not D&D.

I don't want it to go away. I just don't want it as the default and only option.

D&D's math is designed for you to get hit and take damage. This encourages either "scaredy cat" play or bringing a cleric (or druid, or wand user).

I would love for the game to support another option. Something other than going from 20 HP to 10 Hp to 20 HP to 15 HP to 3 HP to -3 HP to 7 HP to 20 HP.

That having been said, I would be very interested to read house rules that produce combat that combines the feeling of danger with the ability to recover for the next encounter without so much of the healing yo-yo effect.

-KS

Here are some.

1) A friend of mine designed a base class for 3E called a spellshield. It was a d4 HD melee warrior. It had a special ability that when he or a nearby ally was hit, he can instantly sacrifice one of his spells to get 5*(spell level+1) damage reduction to absorb the damage. Because of this, his character rarely got lower than 80% HP. But as the spells were sacrificed, things got tense.

This was combined with my own character who had permanent 50% miss chance (effective doubling his HP). And another character with massive AC. Overall we were unhittable but dropped if we were ever touched because of our craptacular HP. We rarely healed outside of towns during the whole adventure as there were few times of HP urgency. But the drama stayed.


2) Once had a game where we looted a fully charged wand of aid. Drama built up when our aid based THP ran out. Essentially it become a Stamina point system as the aid THP became our measuring line. It is the source of my love of temporary HP.

3) Then there's the 4E/Naruto variant I play with my cousins where Healing Surges don't grant HP, they cause attacks to miss. They are almost always bloodied and don't care.... But let them run low on HS.