Level Up (A5E) Overpowered Scrolls? - Casting spells without slots

Grakarg

Explorer
In the section 'Casting spells without slots' (pg 492), it states that a caster can cast a spell from a scroll at a higher level if they make an ability check vs 10 + the intended spell level of the spell. It explicitly states that doing so allows a caster to cast spells at a level higher than they can normally cast.

Given that low level spell scrolls are fairly cheap, and expertise dice or buffs to ability checks are fairly common, it seems like this could be abusable. Supercharging 1st lvl magic missiles into 9th lvl range, or beefing up magic weapon spells to +3, etc.

That said, I like the versatility and the intent. Maybe dial it back to just supercharging spells up to max spell level they can currently cast instead of being able to exceed it? I'd probably note that some spells may be inscribed at a higher level and can be cast at that level if it is above the spell level they can cast.

Thoughts?
 

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Inglorin

Explorer
The level of the cast spell is set by the scroll. If you find a spell scroll (3rd level) "Fireball" you can't upcast it to 4th or 8th level. You can only cast it at 3rd level. If you find a "Fireball" (8th level), though, the heat is on!
 

Grakarg

Explorer
While the level of the cast spell is set by the scroll, per the rules on pg 492, you can still upcast the spell from a scroll.

It says, "A character who uses a magical scroll can cast it at a higher level, or even cast a spell of a higher level than the character can normally cast, by making an ability check, using their spellcasting ability against a DC of 10+the level at which they cast the spell."
It even goes on to mention that if you spend an additional 12 hours in a magical stronghold casting the spell from a scroll, you get an additional bonus equal to your spellcasting modifier on your check to cast the spell.

That's crazy good, right? It makes spell scrolls much more valuable and versatile, and probably makes any character that focuses on crafting scrolls (like a wizard probably) more powerful.

I'm not convinced that its TOO powerful though, but it might be. Its a definite boost, but because their consumables, I'm not 100% sure if it will unbalance a game at a table or not. I'm on the fence.
I'll need to see it in play first to see how my players make use of it.
 

Yeah, that was the interpretation that immediately stood out to me too, though I don’t like it and will not use it even if it is correct. The spell slot has to come from somewhere—either the scroll or the caster. If neither has slots of a level, the spell can‘t happen, that‘s pretty much the way its always been, and how I will be running it, because the alternative has some pretty radical ”metamagical” implications.

I do think its possible that it isn‘t intended to create this new interpretation and only refers to casters casting scrolls that are already that level. (But thats based on the pre-bug fixed version, so I‘m not sure if it has change.)
 

Doskious

Explorer
As far as I can tell, the revised version reads the same.

I agree that, at first glance, it seems like some kind of violation of something for someone to scribe a scroll of Fireball at minimum strength, slot-wise, and then for someone (possibly the same someone) to come along (maybe as little as 5 minutes later) and use the scroll of Fireball to cast Fireball as though with an 8th level spell slot. Where is the magical power coming from, right?

And yet...

Digging into it, let's consider the relevant statistics and salient details of the entire system encompassed by the premise:

The DC for the spellcasting-ability check, to cast a spell from a scroll "at a higher level, or even ... of a higher level than the character can normally cast", is DC 10 + the intended level of the spell. That is, to cast, using a slot of level X, any spell that would normally be cast using a slot of level < X, or any spell where X exceeds the level of the highest spell slot possessed by the caster attempting the action, the caster must make an ability check against a DC of 10 + X.

The cap on spellcasting attributes is, for most characters at most levels, 20, for a +5 modifier. In character builds where this constraint is overridden, access to high-level spell slots is more or less a given, and we can therefore confine ourselves to the consideration of a +5 modifier being the effective cap on the relevant check. ("But Dosk, what about the stronghold modifier?" -- Yeah, I'll get to that, bear with me. ;D )

Let's assume that, as a spellcaster, the character attempting this has at least a +2 modifier to their spellcasting ability score, and examine the bounded conditions arising therefrom.

Being able to cast a cantrip as though using a level 1 slot from a scroll requires a DC 11 [spellcasting ability] check, meaning that accomplishing this will be, according to the Law of Large Numbers, successful 60% of the time for a caster with a +2 modifier (as they need a 9 or higher), 65% of the time for someone with a +3, 70% for +4, and 75% of the time for someone with a +5 modifier.

As the level of the slot being used increases, those "easiest case" percentages lose 5% per cast-as-though-from-a-slot-of-Xth-level increase.

Trying to cast a spell from a scroll as though using a 9th level slot (no matter the level of the spell on the scroll) is technically possible 20% of the time for someone with a +2 modifier, and 35% of the time for someone with a +5 modifier. It's technically possible to do 10% of the time for someone with a casting stat of 10, and 5% of the time for someone with a -1 modifier to their casting stat (requiring a natural 20 on the roll).

So: absent the resources of a stronghold, upcasting from a scroll is between roughly 60% and 30% successful, depending on who is doing the casting and what level of slot they're trying to upcast with, with the more valuable upcasting being less than 50% likely to succeed across the full range of potentially-fielded values.

And that's where the power comes from (to address the fluff balance verisimilitude question). The result of failing the check is that the spell still fades from the scroll, just the magic doesn't go where the caster wanted it to. (This is an interpretation for narrative reasons -- if it works for you, great, if not, don't use it. I'm not saying this is what the rules do mean, I'm saying this is what the rules could mean.)

Ahh, but the Stronghold skews the percentages. It also imposes a 12-hour cast time and can't be any stronghold, it has to be "a magical stronghold appropriate to their class". This also makes sense to me (from the perspective of "where does the power come from?").

All in all, the likely costs in terms of failed castings would seem, in my view, to more than balance the likely benefits to any reckless attempts to exploit this feature, and the ability to allow a chance (that can be improved) of achieving something themselves is likely to spur my players (at least) to engage in more interesting narrative pursuits, be those securing permission to use a suitable stronghold before they have access to one, or trying to figure out some other way to get a bonus to the attempt by being creative.

I don't see the mechanic as being terribly disruptive the way that it seems to be printed. At worst, it means that players will sometimes get lucky and manage to conserve resources. At best, it's a whole new avenue through which interesting stories can be pursued.
 

I'm not sure it adds much though. It's already an O5e rule that you can make that tricky ability check to cast a scroll that is normally too high level for you. It's been that way in other editions too. I've even used it as a plot point, letting a low level wizard cast a wish from a scroll.

The stronghold making it easier is a cool addition, but the idea of being able upcast a scroll beyond the slot imbedded in to it seems like probably just an awkwardness of phrasing (given that it is presented in the same breath as casting a spell of a higher level than you know--and that certainly has to be already in the scroll, because you can't cast upcast a scorching ray scroll into a fireball scroll).
 

Doskious

Explorer
I'm not sure it adds much though. It's already an O5e rule that you can make that tricky ability check to cast a scroll that is normally too high level for you. It's been that way in other editions too. I've even used it as a plot point, letting a low level wizard cast a wish from a scroll.

The stronghold making it easier is a cool addition, but the idea of being able upcast a scroll beyond the slot imbedded in to it seems like probably just an awkwardness of phrasing (given that it is presented in the same breath as casting a spell of a higher level than you know--and that certainly has to be already in the scroll, because you can't cast upcast a scorching ray scroll into a fireball scroll).

I've yet to identify a section of the rules that articulates that a spell on a scroll is hard-associated with a particular slot level.

TT indicates that all spells cast from items (including scrolls):
Unless stated otherwise, a spell cast from a magic item is cast at the lowest possible spell level, and it requires no components or spell slots.
Except that the section in the rules on 'Casting spells without slots' (pg 492) specifically states that:
A character who uses a magical scroll can cast it at a higher level, or even cast a spell of a higher level than the character can normally cast, by making an ability check, using their spellcasting ability against a DC of 10 + the level at which they cast the spell.
And specific overrides general. In this case, the general rule is that spells cast from magic items are cast at the lowest possible level, and the specific override has to do with casting spells from scrolls. Scrolls is a more specific subset of magical items.

I'm not at all sure what "using a magical scroll to cast [the spell on the scroll] at a higher level" means other than "at a higher level than the default lowest-possible spell level it would normally be cast at." Meaning that, as far as I can tell, yes, my Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball using a 3rd level slot for the crafting and then attempt a DC 19 Intelligence check to try to cast Fireball as though using a 9th level slot from that scroll. If I'm successful, the Fireball does 12d6 damage. If not, the scroll is expended without any Fireball-y effects at all.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I've yet to identify a section of the rules that articulates that a spell on a scroll is hard-associated with a particular slot level.

TT indicates that all spells cast from items (including scrolls):

Except that the section in the rules on 'Casting spells without slots' (pg 492) specifically states that:

And specific overrides general. In this case, the general rule is that spells cast from magic items are cast at the lowest possible level, and the specific override has to do with casting spells from scrolls. Scrolls is a more specific subset of magical items.

I'm not at all sure what "using a magical scroll to cast [the spell on the scroll] at a higher level" means other than "at a higher level than the default lowest-possible spell level it would normally be cast at." Meaning that, as far as I can tell, yes, my Wizard can scribe a scroll of Fireball using a 3rd level slot for the crafting and then attempt a DC 19 Intelligence check to try to cast Fireball as though using a 9th level slot from that scroll. If I'm successful, the Fireball does 12d6 damage. If not, the scroll is expended without any Fireball-y effects at all.
I agree with this, and I can't really see any other way it could work.
 

Grakarg

Explorer
Overall, I think I like how this works. I haven't had a chance to try it out at the table yet, but I don't think my group will end up with a maximized scroll-using Scribe of ultimate fyreballz or other nonsense.
I think the end effect will be to add some versatility to scrolls, making them a more valuable resource for our game's wizard. The ability check component should help 'ramp up tension' for the player causing them to worry if they'll fail the check, and it should create a fun game moment when the check is successful and they upcast a spell to a greater effect.
And if it becomes a problem... they'll just find fewer scrolls in treasure.
 

I think given the odds of success it is OK for a character to upcast a spell written on a scroll by just passing the spellcasting check.

If you think about it, the scroll is a one off object that allows you to cast a spell you don't necessarily know, and without burning a spell slot.
The normal usage of the scroll is thus safe, but limited by the minimum level of the spell that is written on the scroll: one could create an upcast Fireball scroll, in principle, and doing so could actually be a very good use of downtime IMO, spending resources and spell slots when not needed and having some spare ones when needed (=> high level npcs should always have several scrolls IMO)

The possibility of casting higher level spells than currently possible through scrolls is interesting especially from a narrative pov (we are not able to raise dead yet, but we found a scroll to do so, let's cross fingers and hope it works)
Upcasting scrolls "for free" is more interesting from a mechanical pov: in order to have a chance to upcast the spell (roughly 30-60% chance of success) you give up the auto-success, and risk of burning the scroll without any effect. In a game where scrolls are relatively abundant, it could make for a fun "gambler wizard" build.
 

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