Overrun/Bull Rush Clarification

[Felnar]

Overrun, bull rush, and maintaining a grapple all require you to move into the opponents square, but they all seem to provoke AoO's differently.
Moving to maintaining a grapple "provokes AoO's from threatenting opponents but not from your target" (althought the grapple attempt already provoked an AoO from our target).
Moving to bull rush "provokes an AoO from each opponent that threatens you, inclucing the defender" but these AoO's have a 25% chance to attack the wrong combatant.
Moving to overrun "provokes an AoO from the defender"

why are they all different?
and why does overrun seem to provoke an AoO from only the defender?

thanks,
- Felnar

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Moving to maintaining a grapple "provokes AoO's from threatenting opponents but not from your target" (althought the grapple attempt already provoked an AoO from our target).

When you move into your opponent's square in order to maintain your hold, your opponent is already grappled. Grappled creatures do not threaten any squares, and therefore your opponent may not make AoOs.

Moving to bull rush "provokes an AoO from each opponent that threatens you, inclucing the defender" but these AoO's have a 25% chance to attack the wrong combatant.

Moving to bull rush provokes AoOs as normal - including from your opponent. Movement *during* the bull rush - when you are pressed up against your opponent, shoving him or her or it backwards - provokes AoO as normal, but with an additional chance to hit the wrong thing.

Moving to overrun "provokes an AoO from the defender"

Identically to all other forms of movement.

 

[William_2]

Moving to overrun "provokes an AoO from the defender"

"Identically to all other forms of movement."


Or possibly the opposite of normal movement to attack and AOOs from the defender.

Or the same, I suppose. See below.

 

[JimAde]

Any movement prior to your overrun provokes AoO normally. Therefore they don't mention it. Overrun provokes AoO from your target because you have to enter his space. I think they mention it just to clarify that the maneuver doesn't protect you from AoO normally provoked for entering an enemy's space.

 

[glass]

Or possibly the opposite of normal movement to attack and AOOs from the defender.

Like say if you are Tiny, and have to move into your opponent's square to attack, which provokes and AoO? So, 'opposite' as in 'perfectly consistent'?


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Moving to overrun "provokes an AoO from the defender"

"Identically to all other forms of movement."


Or possibly the opposite of normal movement to attack and AOOs from the defender.

No, it is exactly the same as normal movement.

In normal movement, if I leave an opponent's threatened square, I provoke an AoO. Leaving multiple threatened squares counts as a single opportunity.

During an overrun attempt, I enter an opponent's threatened area as I approach, leave a threatened square as I enter the opponent's square, leave another threatened square as I move past him, and leave a third threatened square as I leave his threatened area. All of this movement counts as a single opportunity.

 

[Felnar]

all of these manuvers involve moving into the defenders square, but they all treat it differently, and i'm wondering why

When you move into your opponent's square in order to maintain your hold, your opponent is already grappled. Grappled creatures do not threaten any squares, and therefore your opponent may not make AoOs.

yes, i was just mentioning that initiating the grapple already provoked an AoO from the defender before the movement takes place. So the grappler still provokes an AoO from everyone that threathen them.

Moving to bull rush provokes AoOs as normal - including from your opponent. Movement *during* the bull rush - when you are pressed up against your opponent, shoving him or her or it backwards - provokes AoO as normal, but with an additional chance to hit the wrong thing.

i dont agree with you. the PHB SRD says

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you

all of this is before the the opposed strength check is even discussed, so it seems pretty clear to me that the AoOs from entering the defenders square have this 25% chance. But i still dont understand why the overrun or grapple manuvers dont have similar miss chances.

Identically to all other forms of movement.

it makes sense that it'd be like all other forms of movement. But the overrun description specifically says it "provokes an AoO from the defender", whereas the other manuvers specifically say "provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you". Why is overrun decribed differently if it's not meant to be different?


Why shouldnt these similar manuvers all use the same game mechanics?

- Felnar

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

yes, i was just mentioning that initiating the grapple already provoked an AoO from the defender before the movement takes place. So the grappler still provokes an AoO from everyone that threathen them.

Right. As is normal for movement.

You techinically provoke from the guy whose square you are moving in to, as well, but since he's involved in a grapple, and therefore no longer threatens, he can't take advantage of it.

i dont agree with you.

You should.

the PHB SRD says

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you

In other words, my *movement* still provokes AoOs as normal. However, if anyone (other than my target) is taking an AoO based on me moving into that square, they suffer the possiblity of hitting their ally.

Normally, there's no chance for them to hit their ally because I can't ever enter his square. Therefore, the rules need to explain the way this special case works. Absent the special rules on this particular combat maneuver, any AoO taken against me for moving into my opponent's square would not suffer any "miss chance."

all of this is before the the opposed strength check is even discussed, so it seems pretty clear to me that the AoOs from entering the defenders square have this 25% chance. But i still dont understand why the overrun or grapple manuvers dont have similar miss chances.

Ahah! Now we get right down to it. You should have been much, much clearer before this.

I believe the answer is, "Because the rules say they don't." As to the rationale behind that, you got me.

 

[Felnar]

I believe the answer is, "Because the rules say they don't." As to the rationale behind that, you got me.

heh, i was hoping for more than that
appreciate your input tho

oh well, i'll just go house rule on this one.
i'll give all three manuvers the miss chance, and change the overrun wording to be sure that more than just the defender get an AoO.

Unless anyone has good reason not to.
- Felnar

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

heh, i was hoping for more than that
appreciate your input tho

oh well, i'll just go house rule on this one.
i'll give all three manuvers the miss chance, and change the overrun wording to be sure that more than just the defender get an AoO.

If you were going to house rule, I'd go the other way, and remove the miss chance from bull rush.

You also don't really need to change the text on Overrun - anyone who threatens the characters involved is already getting an AoO for movement. The text just highlights that, yes, the defender still gets his AoO on the creature attempting the overrun.