Overuse of monsters and magic.

[shilsen]

I guess its more to do with the supplemental stuff for 3E which really made magic visible and common to "regular people". In 1E the occasional farmer who had a +1 dagger tucked away surely didn't brag about it likely, it didn't make magic common to his village only to himself and only that particular sort. If he brag about it someone would surely take it from him.

Well, it wasn't just the occasional farmer but a whole lot of people in society walking around with magic. Especially in cities, which is generally where magic is visible in 3e. For example:

I think magic used in public settings to the point that its taken for granted (the way we take electricity or jets for granted) is a key difference. Look at some of these settings, perminant lights (or flames) floating ships etc.).

Airships and permanent magical lights exist in Eberron, but not in most 3e settings. And even in Eberron, airships are rare and the permanent magical lights are only in certain areas of Sharn, the largest metropolis in the world. So it's not that ubiquitous, and that's in a setting that's specifically designed to work with 3e rules. And I believe even Sharn actually has much less high-level magic in the hands of NPCs than something like 1e Greyhawk City (definitely less than 2e Greyhawk City), since the highest level NPCs are much lower in Sharn. So the whole availability of magic and how much it's taken for granted is a fairly complex issue.

Also, magic in 3E has been cheapened by all the classes either having early access to it or having FEATS that are so similar its difficult to tell the difference Wizard: "I cast fire ball", Fighter "I use ...........fill in the blank".

Re. the cheapening of magic, see the post by Beginning of the End above yours. I think he has a good point about the fact that availability has a very small role to play in magic seeming interesting or awe-inspiring or memorable. Presentation is much more important, and that's almost exclusively in the hands of the DM, not the setting or the edition.

 

[Valiant]

Sure, I agree presentation has more to do with it then availability. For instance, in a 1E game you might have everyone walking around with a ton of magic on, but unless you have detect magic cast you'd never know, the vast majority of town peasants have no idea. In 1E you just don't see any magic displayed in public that would destroy the setting. Plus, a +1 dagger would be worth then most AD&D villages, why on earth would some dirt digging slob not sell it?

The reason this is so important in AD&D and not 3E (and other D20 systems) is because AD&D has a more Midievil feel exemplifide in their artwork and descriptions (compared to 3E, which runs the gambit of settings) some of the art work in 3E looks positively post-apoptalictic Japanimation with spikey armor tattoos and mowhawks).

It only makes since to make magic more everyday in such sexy settings. But thats not true for 1E with a very Medievel flavor.

 

[S'mon]

Plus, a +1 dagger would be worth then most AD&D villages, why on earth would some dirt digging slob not sell it?

No, AIR in 1e a dagger was worth 250 gp, while rich yeoman farmers might have several dozen gp in their treasure chest - check out Orlane in "Against the Cult of the Reptile God". I agree it would make sense for most poor people to sell it, but as the only defense vs many monsters it might be worth keeping on hand for emergencies.

 

[Valiant]

No, AIR in 1e a dagger was worth 250 gp, while rich yeoman farmers might have several dozen gp in their treasure chest - check out Orlane in "Against the Cult of the Reptile God". I agree it would make sense for most poor people to sell it, but as the only defense vs many monsters it might be worth keeping on hand for emergencies.

According to the DMG a +1 daggers sale value is 750 GPs. A +1 sword 2,000 GPs.

Anyhow, I didn't mean a wealthy farmer land owner, I meant a peasant scratching their existance from the earth, the typical guy (who might even be an employee of the rich farmer). I agree the well off farmer might own a +1 dagger or sword for the reasons you state, but they'd still keep it secret or the local thief would likely nab it).

 

[Hussar]

In 1E you just don't see any magic displayed in public that would destroy the setting.

This is only in your experience of course. In my experience, our homes had continual lights covering every inch, nice spotlights for our flying ship (care of Dragon Magazine) and easy access to the paddock where our flight of hippogriffs were kept.

And, as I recall, the elven lands in Greyhawk had hipogriff cavalry according to the boxed set. It's been a while. But, then again, considering you could sell the eggs rather easily on the market, it doesn't seem all that out of line.

I still maintain that the level of magic had FAR more to do with the DM than on the edition. I've played low magic 3e games where everyone was a human and there were almost no monsters, and I've played in 1e games where we used the Dieties and Demigods as another Monster Manual.

 

[VirgilCaine]

This is D&D. D&D is not the real world, nor is it a mysterious world of magic and monsters.

In my GURPS modern horror game, I want the players worried about what type of vampire or scanner or demonologist they'll face next and what terrible powers the enemy has alternately been granted as foul beings, cursed with a a result of their birth, or granted by their insane lust for power. I want them worried if the next mission will result in their exposure to the public and their retirement from Delta Green. I want them worried when the pharmacist is looking at them with a predatory glint in his eye as they look at a magazine in the drug store.

In D&D I want straightforward, game-enabling magic. I don't want mystery, I want game balance. I want cool, amazing magic devices--amazing because we hardly ever play at high levels, not because it's so hard to obtain.

I don't want rare spellcasters, I want lots of them, so I as a GM can organize them into competing or cooperating groups with different agendas.

I don't want commoners lusting for wizard blood because "he'll call down the demons and burn our crops with fire", (unless of course the wizard is actually evil and that is his stated goal), I want trusted, well-organized groups of benevolent spellcasters to counter the few rogue wizards and the evil cults.

I want to see the Monster Manual I standbys and new monsters the GM has cooked up himself.
I want to roam over an unfamiliar landscape in my Carpet of Flying or on griffon-back or on a Phantom Steed...not be 10th level and still on the same horse I bought at 3rd level.
I want to invade lost tombs and track hidden cities, find and break evil cults worshipping dark gods, destroy threats from beneath the earth to the flourishing civilization above ground.

Magic being mysterious is silly, because it never was.

Monsters being overused...monsters infiltrate the cities, the caravans, the ships, they lurch from the sewers, the alleys, and the graveyards, and the ever-present and dangerous wilderness. They tempt mortals with the promise of money, power, immortality...
They rampage through marketplaces and scheme in smoky back rooms of seaside taverns.

Sure, they shouldn't become passe (common ones should be dusted off and given a new angle), but they're a vital, integral, ubiquitious part of D&D worlds.

 

[Valiant]

This is only in your experience of course. In my experience, our homes had continual lights covering every inch, nice spotlights for our flying ship (care of Dragon Magazine) and easy access to the paddock where our flight of hippogriffs were kept.

And, as I recall, the elven lands in Greyhawk had hipogriff cavalry according to the boxed set. It's been a while. But, then again, considering you could sell the eggs rather easily on the market, it doesn't seem all that out of line.

I still maintain that the level of magic had FAR more to do with the DM than on the edition. I've played low magic 3e games where everyone was a human and there were almost no monsters, and I've played in 1e games where we used the Dieties and Demigods as another Monster Manual.

Hussar, if you are saying your PCs homes had continual light in every room and you had hippogriffs, thats fine. I'm talking about "the average home" or street having continual light spells all over, that sort of thing. As long as its something the PCs do for themselves, I think that jibes well with the spirit of the game. The key is, in the world of the average joe, the peasant or merchant, magic is rare, hidden and when seen it causes awe.

As for special people in Greyhawk having all sorts of magic and hypogriffs, thats fine. They are presented as the exception not the rule (and of course, in some demihuman settings you'd expect magic to be more common generally). What you want to avoid is your AD&D world looking like the real one you live in as much as possible; the reason being is that the AD&D experiance is highly defined by its setting (even more so then the rules themselves).

 

[White Whale]

VirgilCaine, I beg to differ

This is D&D. D&D is not the real world, it is a mysterious world of magic and monsters.

In D&D I want straightforward, game-enabling magic (for the PCs). I want magic to be rare and mystic to the average farmer. I want game balance. I want cool, amazing magic devices--amazing because these are items that do unbelievable things (again, from the average farmers point of view), and because they are so hard to obtain.

I want rare spellcasters, I want few of them, so as there is a legitimate reason why the PCs should take on the BBEG instead of some of the numerous high level NPCs.

I don't want commoners lusting for wizard blood because there probably isn't a (high level) wizards within hundreds of miles. I don't want trusted, well-organized groups of benevolent spellcasters to counter the few rogue wizards and the evil cults, because that prevents the PCs from asking "why does not [insert powerful group] take care of the BBEG?"

I want to see the Monster Manual I standbys and new monsters the GM has cooked up himself.
I want to be 10th level and still on the same horse I bought at 3rd level (which should be advanced some hit dice).
I don't want to roam over an unfamiliar landscape in my Carpet of Flying or on griffon-back or on a Phantom Steed...because I think this makes for a boring interaction with the world.

I want to invade lost tombs and track hidden cities, find and break evil cults worshipping dark gods, destroy threats from beneath the earth to the flourishing civilization above ground.

Magic being mysterious is crucial, because it makes the rare appearances so much more memorable.

I hate monsters being overused... if monsters infiltrate the cities, the caravans, the ships, they lurch from the sewers, the alleys, and the graveyards, and the ever-present and dangerous wilderness, how exactly are the commoners supposed to survive in this world?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The problem with "magical" magic (ie mysterious) is that if you have PC spellcasters you have to have rules for magic which makes it known and not mysterious.

Geoff.

INdeed. When a player character breaks the law of physics and reality more often than they poop, magic IS mundane. Ditch PC spellcasters if you want magic to be rare and mysterious.

 

[Quasqueton]

No, AIR in 1e a dagger was worth 250 gp,

Interestingly, there are no basic +1 daggers in the AD&D DMG. There are:

Dagger +1, +2 vs. creatures smaller than man-sized = 750gp
Dagger +2, +3 vs. creatures larger than man-sized = 2,000gp
Dagger of Venom = 3,000gp

But I remember seeing +1 daggers all over the place in the old days. ?

Just checked: There's two in the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Quasqueton