Overuse of monsters and magic.

[Raven Crowking]

VirgilCaine, I beg to differ

This is D&D. D&D is not the real world, it is a mysterious world of magic and monsters.

In D&D I want straightforward, game-enabling magic (for the PCs). I want magic to be rare and mystic to the average farmer. I want game balance. I want cool, amazing magic devices--amazing because these are items that do unbelievable things (again, from the average farmers point of view), and because they are so hard to obtain.

I want rare spellcasters, I want few of them, so as there is a legitimate reason why the PCs should take on the BBEG instead of some of the numerous high level NPCs.

I don't want commoners lusting for wizard blood because there probably isn't a (high level) wizards within hundreds of miles. I don't want trusted, well-organized groups of benevolent spellcasters to counter the few rogue wizards and the evil cults, because that prevents the PCs from asking "why does not [insert powerful group] take care of the BBEG?"

I want to see the Monster Manual I standbys and new monsters the GM has cooked up himself.
I want to be 10th level and still on the same horse I bought at 3rd level (which should be advanced some hit dice).
I don't want to roam over an unfamiliar landscape in my Carpet of Flying or on griffon-back or on a Phantom Steed...because I think this makes for a boring interaction with the world.

I want to invade lost tombs and track hidden cities, find and break evil cults worshipping dark gods, destroy threats from beneath the earth to the flourishing civilization above ground.

Magic being mysterious is crucial, because it makes the rare appearances so much more memorable.

I hate monsters being overused... if monsters infiltrate the cities, the caravans, the ships, they lurch from the sewers, the alleys, and the graveyards, and the ever-present and dangerous wilderness, how exactly are the commoners supposed to survive in this world?

I like the cut of your jib, and would like to sign up for your newsletter.

 

[Hussar]

The trick is, the rules accommodate both styles equally well. Valiant is claiming, I think that if you played in VirgilCaine's sort of world, then it wasn't really AD&D. That the only way you could have a true AD&D experience is if you went with White Whale's version.

Me, I can live with either one. It doesn't bother me in the slightest to play in one campaign where magic is mysterious and rare and play in another campaign the next day where magic is widespread and common. I'm fairly neutral either way.

What bugs me is when people try to claim that one way or the other is somehow the "default" for the rules. It's not. People "back in the day" used to treat the Dieties and Demigods as just another Monster Manual. Were they not playing AD&D? If you asked them, they would certainly say they were.

 

[Reynard]

INdeed. When a player character breaks the law of physics and reality more often than they poop, magic IS mundane. Ditch PC spellcasters if you want magic to be rare and mysterious.

Alternatively, you could use magic that the PCs don't access to and makes their poopy physics breaking look mundane by comparison. Sure, we yawn at things that would make people 100 years ago soil themselves, but if time travellers from a century hence showed up, we'd be the soiled ones. It is all about your point of reference. A fireball might be boring, but summoning a living fireball might not be.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest to play in one campaign where magic is mysterious and rare and play in another campaign the next day where magic is widespread and common.

I agree with you here, although I would rather play with a DM who felt strongly about his preferences (and thus used them to create a strong world) than one who did not. I prefer any strongly envisioned campaign setting to the kitchen sink type. I know it is only a matter of preference, but kitchen sink type games always seem wishy-washy to me.

OTOH, my strengths in running the game are fairly one-way.

 

[Hussar]

Alternatively, you could use magic that the PCs don't access to and makes their poopy physics breaking look mundane by comparison. Sure, we yawn at things that would make people 100 years ago soil themselves, but if time travellers from a century hence showed up, we'd be the soiled ones. It is all about your point of reference. A fireball might be boring, but summoning a living fireball might not be.

But, after the first time, the players are yawning again, even if they find the first time to be "wowee zappo!"

Let's face it, players are more or less omniscient actors in the world. They have a pretty good idea what's in the PHB and dropping a higher level spell, or even a spell you make up on your own isn't going to make too many players go, "Golly gee, look at that!" Really, a living fireball is just a fireball that sticks around and moves. It's... a fire elemental. Whoa, yeah, I can see being totally wowed by that.

Let's be realistic here, in the face of special effects the likes of the latest Harry Potter movie, trying to wow your players with a fireball isn't going to make the grade. When I've SEEN people teleporting, flying, chucking flame from their fingers and whatnot, you've got some very big shoes to fill before you're going to register much more than interest from most players.

 

[Valiant]

The trick is, the rules accommodate both styles equally well. Valiant is claiming, I think that if you played in VirgilCaine's sort of world, then it wasn't really AD&D. That the only way you could have a true AD&D experience is if you went with White Whale's version.

Me, I can live with either one. It doesn't bother me in the slightest to play in one campaign where magic is mysterious and rare and play in another campaign the next day where magic is widespread and common. I'm fairly neutral either way.

What bugs me is when people try to claim that one way or the other is somehow the "default" for the rules. It's not. People "back in the day" used to treat the Dieties and Demigods as just another Monster Manual. Were they not playing AD&D? If you asked them, they would certainly say they were.

Hussar, I actually kind of agree with you here. It is very un-AD&D to restrict your DM created reality to any given technology or setting. I remember one campaign our DM got pissed at one of the players for peeking over the screen and so sent us all to a brigg in the USS Nimitz. I used color spray to stun a guard, a thief got us out of the brigg, and our MU toasted some marines in the hall (after nailing one of our fighters with an M-16. After this insanity we got sent back to the game. Idiotic? Yes. But it was memerable, and it was AD&D (no bounds) at its finest.

Yet, I still think that if you read the DMG and PH along with the MM and some of the first modules you'll get a very solid feel for the technology (via magic) level there was supposed to be. It was (and is) the default reality, a place where the DM should start. That doesn't mean the DM should feel constricted by this (narrowness has nothing to do with AD&D), he should see this as a guide, but ultimately its up to him, it is his reality being presented.

I think the problem I have isn't with individual DMs (they're doing there job presenting wierdness juxtaposed with "normal-ness", but rather module writers, who present a world alien to "most" of the market and expect them to accept this as the new "default".

For instance, Dragon Lance did this. At first it was treated by the guys I new with distaste, but eventually they fell for all the little novelties it presented (replacing their own little worlds for one sexed and hyped up by marketers. Perhaps a brighter more colorful presentation with wow factor, but less satisfying because it didn't evolve from within.

Anyhow, yep AD&D is about not telling the DM what to do. But its also about starting from the default setting presented in the rule books. You have to remember the rule books are objective things, just like the rules for Monopoly (except part of the "rules" of AD&D is the setting). And just like in Monopoly, at your table you can do with that base as much as you like. Just please Parker Brothers, don't change the original on us every 6 months to drive sales (and thats what TSR did and WOTC is doing).

 

[VirgilCaine]

VirgilCaine, I beg to differ

This is D&D. D&D is not the real world, it is a mysterious world of magic and monsters.

Oh, there's magic and monsters. They're just not mysterious. Except for the new ones that occasionally pop up.
The monsters are hidden, and covert, but they aren't mysterious at all.

In D&D I want straightforward, game-enabling magic (for the PCs). I want magic to be rare and mystic to the average farmer. I want game balance. I want cool, amazing magic devices--amazing because these are items that do unbelievable things (again, from the average farmers point of view), and because they are so hard to obtain.

Why it would be unbelievable in a world of magic, I don't know.

I want rare spellcasters, I want few of them, so as there is a legitimate reason why the PCs should take on the BBEG instead of some of the numerous high level NPCs.

I don't want commoners lusting for wizard blood because there probably isn't a (high level) wizards within hundreds of miles. I don't want trusted, well-organized groups of benevolent spellcasters to counter the few rogue wizards and the evil cults, because that prevents the PCs from asking "why does not [insert powerful group] take care of the BBEG?"

Because they're, you know, fighting the cults and tracking down the rogue spellcasters. Duh. They're doing research, and performing search and destroy operations, and participating in the Purge, fighting monsters and blocking routes to the surface. You know, keeping things on the ball.

I want to be 10th level and still on the same horse I bought at 3rd level (which should be advanced some hit dice).
I don't want to roam over an unfamiliar landscape in my Carpet of Flying or on griffon-back or on a Phantom Steed...because I think this makes for a boring interaction with the world.

Boring? That's boring? Flying is boring?

Well, I have to say that that is a pretty alien viewpoint. Flying is an exciting, amazing thing. You've got a whole 'nother dimension to work with and explore.

There's a dozen different places and creatures that could be hidden high in the air above the clouds that could be explored.

Magic being mysterious is crucial, because it makes the rare appearances so much more memorable.

Totally against the whole point of D&D, IMO. You couldn't get more contrary if you tried.

Very powerful magic being rare is something else. 9th level spells are something to be noticed, tracked, and responded to. It'll be mysterious only because you don't know who did it or why...

I hate monsters being overused... if monsters infiltrate the cities, the caravans, the ships, they lurch from the sewers, the alleys, and the graveyards, and the ever-present and dangerous wilderness, how exactly are the commoners supposed to survive in this world?

Adventurers, duh.

And besides, I meant that you could find them in those places, not that they're stuffed chock-full of monsters.