Pact Blades and Fighter Weapon Talent

[Hella_Tellah]

I've rolled up a Half-Elf fighter with two warlock spells--one from Dilettante, and the other with the Pact Initiate multiclassing feat. He uses a rapier Pact Blade for the spells and for fighter powers. So I axe you:

Does Fighter Weapon Talent's bonus to hit apply to my warlock spells?
"Choose either one-handed or two-handed weapons. When using a weapon of your chosen style, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls."

It seems to me that an attack roll is an attack roll, as far as the feature is concerned, but I want to make sure I'm not pulling a fast one on my DM. Also, would Weapon Focus give me +1 to damage on the spells as well?

Thanks for your input!

 

[useridunavailable]

Bonuses related to wielding weapons only apply to powers with the "Weapon" keyword.

Edit: There are exceptions *sort of*, but they only apply to enhancement bonus - pact blade, Wizard of the Spiral Tower feature, Staff implement... I think that's it.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Yeah, a pact blade used as an implement is an implement, not a one-handed weapon. So that would mean Fighter Weapon Talent, Weapon Focus, etc... don't work with warlock powers cast through a pact blade. That's how I understand it, anyway.

 

[Nifft]

Bonuses related to wielding weapons only apply to powers with the "Weapon" keyword.

Right. Page 275 spells it out (the beige box).

Edit: There are exceptions *sort of*, but they only apply to enhancement bonus - pact blade, Wizard of the Spiral Tower feature, Staff implement... I think that's it.

Not quite. Those aren't exceptions -- you don't get ever weapon bonuses added to your implement powers.

Instead, you get to treat one item as both a weapon and an implement, but any given power only benefits from the weapon or the implement. They just happen to exist in the same item.

So you never get Weapon Focus added to spells, nor do you get to use Heavy Blade Opportunity with Implement powers.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Right. Page 275 spells it out (the beige box).

I don't quite see how that applies--that box is just about bonus types and how they "stack". I mean, this is an "untyped" bonus, and all the box says is that untyped bonuses stack with one another.

I can buy the reasoning that the Fighter bonus says it's for weapons, and that in terms of spells, the Pact Blade counts as an implement, but I'm not seeing the RAW explanation. I'm leaning toward the idea that the Fighter Weapon Talent doesn't apply, but I don't see a rule that explicitly says yay or nay.

Not something I'd spend any time at all debating at the table, but I'm looking for a hard, fast rule on the subject, and I think this has application for warlocks looking to grab Weapon Focus with their pact blades, as well.

 

[Spatula]

pg 55-6 of the PHB ("Accessories") mentions that bonuses only apply to powers with the proper keywords, although it only mentions weapon proficiency bonuses. I suppose that's not much different from what pg 275 says.

But I think that any bonus that applies "when using a weapon" should not be added in when using an implement. The division between the two is rather clear in the rules. Pact blades and staves are both weapon and implements, but you can only use them as one or the other at any given time. Implements are not weapons and vice versa.

 

[Nifft]

I don't quite see how that applies--that box is just about bonus types and how they "stack". I mean, this is an "untyped" bonus, and all the box says is that untyped bonuses stack with one another.

Oops, I was thinking of Proficiency bonuses to attack. I should have said page 276. Sorry.

Let's phrase this a different way: nothing allows you to add Weapon bonuses to attacks that don't have the Weapon keyword. Specifically: "If you use a weapon to make the attack, your weapon also affects damage." Nothing else allows you to add weapon bonuses -- including feat bonuses to weapon damage -- to a power.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hella_Tellah]

But I think that any bonus that applies "when using a weapon" should not be added in when using an implement. The division between the two is rather clear in the rules. Pact blades and staves are both weapon and implements, but you can only use them as one or the other at any given time. Implements are not weapons and vice versa.

I agree with your reasoning on this, and will be running it that way as a house rule--but I'm still not seeing the RAW justification for it. I mean, it's sensible enough, and it's better in terms of balance (otherwise, grabbing a Pact Blade would be a no-brainer for warlocks), but I don't see the rule that says so.

It's a piddly little quibble, but if anyone can find me something in the rules that addresses this, it would assuage my rules-lawyer hunger for a concrete ruling. At current, it looks like a house rule, albeit a very sensible one, to interpret the Fighter Weapon Talent to apply only to powers with the Weapon keyword.