Pain-in-the-a** Players

[takyris]

Remember that we're only getting one side of this. I can see myself coming up with some of the same complaints in the right situation:

Swashbuckling/Kara-Tur: Swashbuckling doesn't have to be oceanic. You can have swashbuckling adventures in Kara-Tur. It's a style of play, not a setting restriction.

Rogue issues: If the players say that your DMPC is overshadowing them, then he is overshadowing them. If the party doesn't have a rogue, the intelligent thing to do is to make alternate ways of solving problems that don't require rogues. A well-crafted adventure, ideally, has a combat-centric, skill-centric, and magic-centric way to solve most of the big situations -- ie, you can beat up the guard, sneak/bluff/forgery past the guard, or invisibility/teleport past the guard. If you don't have the time or interest to modify adventures so that a rogue isn't required, that's something you can present as an issue.

Deserts: I don't recall a ton of information about the desert affecting armor in the core rules. It could be there, but I don't remember it. Players who are just going by the ordinary core rules might think that ditching their heavy armor purely for roleplaying reasons is dumb, especially if they're worried about the combats you throw at them. This is a communication issue.

Combats too tough: I'm sensing a bit of contempt for your players here. This is not going to help the game. Not all players think of buying alchemist equipment -- it doesn't suit the style of some players, and it doesn't occur to them. If they're asking for "Swashbuckler"-type games, it sounds like they want easier combats that reward dashing displays of bravery and heroism, not strategic combats that reward preparation and minimizing excitement in favor of safety. This is a style issue.

I'm not here to spoon-feed you the adventure

Your players don't seem interested in drawing maps and getting into strategy and puzzle-solving through cartography. As for not thinking to climb out -- it's possible (although by no means a foregone conclusion) that this is something you could have described more effectively to let them know that it was a possibility.

Again, your tone indicates that you've got some contempt for your players. This isn't gonna solve anything.

Evil: Summoning demons is not a way to make friends with a good party. I'd consider that a roleplaying issue -- and since you're a player in this situation, it doesn't really have anything to do with you as a DM.

Paladin-killing-xvarts: Communication issue. Hammering out a paladin's code and what's acceptible/unacceptible gets rid of this issue. Some players are used to "Okay, it's a xvart, which means it's evil, it wants to kill me, and it's going to try to kill me as best it can, and if it runs away, it's only to kill me later." Like the SHARK version of the paladin, which might believe that xvart-children eat babies and gang up to kill virgins in the woods and stuff (although this does cut down on their baby food source in the long run).

It sounds like you and the players have some issues. I hope you can talk about them without the chip on your shoulder.

 

[Kalendraf]

If I were going to move from player to DM in an existing group, I would definitely start a brand new campaign. Period.

That addresses some of the issues (not wanting your old PC to become an NPC, travel to certain areas, etc) by removing them entirely from the equation. Depending on the group, you can implement certain houserules to address anything else that seems to be a likely issue.

If they insist on playing the old campaign instead, then I'd tell them to get a different DM. If you want me to DM, this is the campaign I'm going to run. Heavy-handed - certaintly, but if I'm going to DM, I'm going to do it on my terms.

 

[Zappo]

First of all, I sympathize with you. That said:

"We want swashbuckling adventures *and* to travel to Kara-Tur and fight samurai and ninja." (Since when did an ocean appear in The Hordelands? We're in Thesk right now - you can either *go west* and have swashbuckling adventures or *go east* to hit Kara-Tur.)

I'm not an expert on that bit of the realms, but is Kara-Tur land-locked? If you *go east* and keep *going east* through Kara-Tur, you're going to hit a sea, right? Even if this isn't the case, well, you can change the geography. It's a perk of being a DM.

"We don't want you to play your PC as an NPC when you take over as DM because it overshadows the rest of us!" (Ok... so who is gonna be the rogue?)

I agree with them. DMs, as a general rule, should not play persistant NPCs that accompany the party. It's a conflict of interests. In the best case, it's very annoying for the players.

"We don't need a rogue - just don't send us into places full of traps."

If they were my party, I would agree and not send them to places full of traps. I hate hate hate when I have to fill up a position in the party because there is no cleric or whatever, instead of playing what I want to. So I encourage people to make whatever PC they want, and I'll make sure that the adventure is doable.

However, that's me. I recognize that that methodology is debatable and not everyone may agree.

"No desert adventures." (Not my fault they didn't heed my advice to trade their full plate for light armor prior to setting off into the desert when I attempted to run Desert of Desolation a few months ago.)

Heavy armor in a desert? And they had even got a warning? Their fault for being stupid.

"You make the encounters too tough." (Not my fault they didn't buy things like tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fire when I ran them through UK2 and they didn't have magic weapons and complained about fighting the perytons instead of using some brains, improvising, adapting and overcoming...)[/quoe]I like tough encounters where I have to think. OTOH, having to kill a high-DR monster with the wrong weapons, or otherwise having to have a specific bit of non-trivial equipment, isn't the situation I enjoy the most. I doubt people can be expected to have specific alchemical items, and as for magical weapons, PCs generally depend on the DM to obtain them.

Still, after the desert comment, I suspect that this is just a case of players not thinking.

"You don't make things fair." (I'm not here to spoon-feed you the adventure - think instead of whining - related to the Desert of Desolation module, above, when I refused to concede to their frustrated demand to "Just let us out of this damn maze!!!" It wasn't until, *finally* one of them had the brains to climb up and out of the maze after entering a set of rooms that allow this. God forbid they actually (gasp) draw a map!?!?!)

Agree with you 100%. As a player, I never show signs of frustration as long as there is still something I haven't tried. And there always, always is.

"We don't want your character because he is evil" (Stated when I, as a PC rather than a DM, used Summon Monster to summon a demon - which we needed to fight what we were fighting.)

Summoning a demon is an evil action, because it's an [Evil] spell. But it's not a greatly evil action (though what you do with the demon may be). And one evil action does not make a character evil (especially if it was done in need).

The real problem here is that as a general rule, DMs should not have PCs.

"You are a b*****d and this isn't right." (Loud complaints when I refused to give one player any XP for an encounter in which his Paladin of Tyr purposely killed fleeing women and children (granted, they were xvarts, but still), clearly against the whole idea of a Good character - who *at the most* should have only subdued them.)

It's a hotly debated topic whether killing the women and children of an evil-aligned race is an evil action. I happen to agree with you here, but do not believe that the answer is so obvious.

Any suggestions, other than refusing to DM?

Yup, everything above. Basically, let them have swashbuckling adventures in Kara-Tur, don't play your PC, and try not to make their suboptimal party makeup too much of a problem (making it a plot hook, on the other hand, could be interesting).

 

[Timely Drought]

I'm eagerly awaiting the Pain-in-the-a** DM thread to pop up any moment now.

 

[maddman75]

What do you do about them? I've a group set in the Forgotten Realms that I originally was a player in and now they want me to DM. Fine - but how do I go about developing the campaign without getting angry at them when they have the following attitudes/statements (past and present.) Right away (before I even take over from the current DM), the demands and caveats and conditions start.

"We want swashbuckling adventures *and* to travel to Kara-Tur and fight samurai and ninja." (Since when did an ocean appear in The Hordelands? We're in Thesk right now - you can either *go west* and have swashbuckling adventures or *go east* to hit Kara-Tur.)

What's the problem? You have a group of players telling you *exactly* what kind of adventure they want to have. I can't recall where Thesk is (its been too long, and my Realms-fu is weak) but have them go to the western coast and travel across the globe! They'll be Faerun's Magellan, can't get more swashbuckling than that. And where will they end up? - Kara-Tur, where they can fight ninjas and samurai.

"We don't want you to play your PC as an NPC when you take over as DM because it overshadows the rest of us!" (Ok... so who is gonna be the rogue?)

They have a point. DMs have enough to worry about without keeping an NPC in the party.

"We don't need a rogue - just don't send us into places full of traps."

Again, they have a point. It sounds like they are more interested in a story based game. And they're the stars of the story. If none of them are rogues, then why have traps?

"No desert adventures." (Not my fault they didn't heed my advice to trade their full plate for light armor prior to setting off into the desert when I attempted to run Desert of Desolation a few months ago.)

Once again, players telling you exactly what they like and what they don't like. Go with it!

"You make the encounters too tough." (Not my fault they didn't buy things like tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fire when I ran them through UK2 and they didn't have magic weapons and complained about fighting the perytons instead of using some brains, improvising, adapting and overcoming...)

Like someone else said, it sounds like they want to rush in an kick ass rather than have detailed tactical combats. Go with it, let them stomp some bad guys in a dashing fashion. Its a style thing - they may not be into tanglefoot bags and such.

"You don't make things fair." (I'm not here to spoon-feed you the adventure - think instead of whining - related to the Desert of Desolation module, above, when I refused to concede to their frustrated demand to "Just let us out of this damn maze!!!" It wasn't until, *finally* one of them had the brains to climb up and out of the maze after entering a set of rooms that allow this. God forbid they actually (gasp) draw a map!?!?!)

If they don't want to map, don't make them. This is supposed to be fun, so let them have fun. Stick to role play or combat oriented adventures rather than puzzles. I detest mazes myself.

"We don't want your character because he is evil" (Stated when I, as a PC rather than a DM, used Summon Monster to summon a demon - which we needed to fight what we were fighting.)

Irrelevent, as you're the DM now.

"You are a b*****d and this isn't right." (Loud complaints when I refused to give one player any XP for an encounter in which his Paladin of Tyr purposely killed fleeing women and children (granted, they were xvarts, but still), clearly against the whole idea of a Good character - who *at the most* should have only subdued them.)

Talk with the player of the paladin about how alignment works in your game and exactly what his code entails.

Any suggestions, other than refusing to DM?

Go with it - give them what they want. And I agree that if you're taking over, I'd start a new campaign, the entire focus of which is to go to the west to get to the east.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Summoning a demon is an evil action, because it's an [Evil] spell. But it's not a greatly evil action (though what you do with the demon may be). And one evil action does not make a character evil (especially if it was done in need).

All of which is debateable. Alignment tags on spells serve basically two purposes - restricting clerics and druids from casting some of them, and allowing for interactions between spells and effects. Nowhere is it stated that a spell with an [evil] tag is evil. In fact, given that protection from evil is a [good] spell, which is likely to be cast by fiends fighting other fiends, or by evil sorcerors forming pacts with demons, it seems unlikely that such spells affect your karmic balance in any meaningful way.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Wow, they ARE a pain in the butt. My reaction would probably be to start making fun of them and their characters for being big, whiny babies.

Though there are three things which I think are reasonable complaints that you're just overreacting to:

"We don't want you to play your PC as an NPC when you take over as DM because it overshadows the rest of us!"
[..]
"We don't need a rogue - just don't send us into places full of traps."
[..]
"You don't make things fair." (I'm not here to spoon-feed you the adventure - think instead of whining - related to the Desert of Desolation module, above, when I refused to concede to their frustrated demand to "Just let us out of this damn maze!!!" It wasn't until, *finally* one of them had the brains to climb up and out of the maze after entering a set of rooms that allow this. God forbid they actually (gasp) draw a map!?!?!)

That first one is dead-on accurate: if you're running the game, don't play your PC as an NPC. NO ONE SHOULD EVER DO THIS. Oh, I'm sure somewhere out there you might find someone who can run their own character and the game at the same time without screwing it up, but whoever that person is, it's probably not you. Odds are, you're exactly the kind of person who will wreck everyone else's fun by ego-stroking your own character, or you're the kind of person who won't enjoy running your character as an NPC and that dissatisfaction will make it impossible for you to enjoy running the game, too. But even if you're the Chosen One who can play a PC and run the game simultaneously, the fact remains that the other players don't want you to do it, so you probably shouldn't.

Their second complaint above is, admittedly, whiny and stupid, but it's concealing a good point; if they're following the usual "adventurers looking for paying jobs" genre convention, then they should be selecting only adventures where the lack of a rogue isn't going to hamper them. You know, the same way a party without a cleric would probably opt out of an adventure to cleanse a defiled temple and destroy all the undead in it. I'm not saying you should erase the traps from whatever you're running, mind you: just that you might want to offer them adventures where traps aren't a concern. Big aboveground stuff. Fighting bandit hordes, that kind of thing. And you should still feel free to offer them adventures where there are traps, and leave it up to them whether they want to risk it without a rogue.

The third complaint, again, starts off reeking of idiocy but has a tiny bit of wisdom buried within it. I'm talking about the mapping. Yeah, yeah, god forbid they have to draw a map, they should be Old-School Tough Guys with graph paper and a designated map monkey and everything, but stop for a moment and look at it another way. They're telling you they don't like mapping, that mapping is not fun for them. So I have to wonder, is the game supposed to be fun for them, or is it supposed to be an unwanted exercise of their map-making skills? Just because you like maps doesn't mean the other players do, so maybe you should think about skipping the boring mapping part and letting them get on with having fun instead. It won't wreck the adventure, and it'll probably make them happier.


...but probably it'll just force them to find something else to complain about. Ungrateful wretches.

--
something to think about, anyway
ryan

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nowhere is it stated that a spell with an [evil] tag is evil.

You know, I'm convinced that I saw this written somewhere in a WotC source some time in the last couple of years.

I've looked, though, and I can't find it.

I thought it was somewhere in either DotF or BoVD, but if it is, it's eluding me.

Haven't found it in an FAQ either.

But I have a really strong feeling that the phrase "Casting a spell with the [Evil] descriptor is an evil act" was written somewhere.

Gah.

-Hyp.

 

[3catcircus]

Wow - so many awesome suggestions.

To clarify some things:

1. While I can certainly go with them telling me *exactly* what they want, in this case - "swashbuckling adventures" - they specifically said "pirates and stuff." My point is "Ok - we're in Thesk - on our way to Telflamm. The whole Inner Sea is one big piratey swashbuckling adventure waiting to happen." Sure - I can have them set off through the steppes, but then they'll complain about no swashbuckling - in order for them to *get* to Kara-Tur to possibly then fight against Wako in a swashbuckling style. Yes - I can do that - but doesn't it make sense to go for the obvious?

2. Two of the players are apathetic about realmslore and another trashes it as "too real-world." As a specific example of this - we all decided (when I was playing, not DMing) that we wanted to by a Cormyrean military unit escorting a caravan along The Golden Way (cover story) while infiltrating and surveilling a Thayan warehouse in Thesk. So - I went to great lengths to gather Jerry Davis' (quite awesome, BTW) Military Forces of Cormyr article and derive an ORBAT from it, and present it to the rest of the group. Immediately, I get "that ORBAT makes no sense - it is too much like the real world." Ok - so who the heck are you to argue with canon?

Likewise - every time I DM (me and another guy trade-off every so often), they've got some obnoxious comment on the realmslore. If they don't like the realmslore, I'm thinking of simply saying "Fine - come up with your own campaign world, then, if you don't like this."

3. A few of them pretend to want roleplaying and tactical combat, but the moment the DM (me or anyone else) uses tactics to counter the PC's, one specific player whines like a little girl. They really want a hackfest - but not even that - they just want carboard enemies so they can rack up xp and loot.

4. I am a bit too self-centered about the idea of "adapting the campaign so that the PCs fit into it, interacting and/or meddling with NPC people and activities" rather than their "adapt the campaign so that the world revolves around me" that they want.

5. While I can understand (and even agree with) the idea of not using my PC as an NPC, I know that the only thing that'll do is allow me more time to get into the heads of the other NPCs and play them more intelligently (see #3, above.) The issue with this is the *fact* that we chose to model our party as a Cormyrean military unit involved in commando-style missions, so even if I don't play my PC as an NPC, the party is left without the "Scout/Security" guy.

I guess the hardest part of this for me is trying to deal with the fact that I can't bring myself to "dumb down" an encounter (monster, trap, NPC interaction) to spoon-feed them an easy solution with a massive award. You shoulda seen the commotion when the other guy who DMs revealed that the party was advancing too quickly so he simply reduced the xp awarded to roughly 2/3 of what was listed in the book...

Thanks for all the great suggestions - look forward to seeing more.

 

[Derulbaskul]

What do you do about them? I've a group set in the Forgotten Realms that I originally was a player in and now they want me to DM. Fine - but how do I go about developing the campaign without getting angry at them when they have the following attitudes/statements (past and present.) Right away (before I even take over from the current DM), the demands and caveats and conditions start.

"We want swashbuckling adventures *and* to travel to Kara-Tur and fight samurai and ninja." (Since when did an ocean appear in The Hordelands? We're in Thesk right now - you can either *go west* and have swashbuckling adventures or *go east* to hit Kara-Tur.)

Well, they're in the perfect place for both. Telflamm was once under the control of the Sharkjaws pirates but the Shadowmasters drove them off. Why not have the pirates return, this time as a vehicle for some crazy Cyricists (ex-Zhentarim; driven away by the Banites) to try and build their own version of Zhentil Keep here in Thesk?

If you read Unapproachable East carefully, you will find that there is a major portal on the principal road that links Thesk with Shou or Kara-Tur. Perhaps as they chase down the Cyricists and "buckle swashes" they also discover this portal and use it to visit the Far East?

Also, don't forget there are "Shou-towns" in various cities and towns in Thesk and also various yakuza groups. Of course, ignoring the fact that the Shou are supposed to be the FR equivalent of the Chinese and yakuza are of course from Japan, just make sure that the PCs annoy the yakuza and then chase them down with a few ninja.

"We don't want you to play your PC as an NPC when you take over as DM because it overshadows the rest of us!" (Ok... so who is gonna be the rogue?)
"We don't need a rogue - just don't send us into places full of traps."

Hmmm, maybe this could be your point of compromise?

"No desert adventures." (Not my fault they didn't heed my advice to trade their full plate for light armor prior to setting off into the desert when I attempted to run Desert of Desolation a few months ago.)

See my suggestion about the portal above.

"You make the encounters too tough." (Not my fault they didn't buy things like tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fire when I ran them through UK2 and they didn't have magic weapons and complained about fighting the perytons instead of using some brains, improvising, adapting and overcoming...)

Ahhh, yes, I just dropped a group for this very reason. Retards. They spent all their time whingeing rather than working out tactics. Assuming you don't want to drop the group, have them fight a party of lower level that uses tactics. The yakuza or Shadowmasters might be appropriate here. Alternatively, let them fight on the same side of another group who uses these sorts of tactics. Make sure, too, that you make your rolls behind the screen and fudge the results a lot to ensure that they see how useful such tactics can be.

"You don't make things fair." (I'm not here to spoon-feed you the adventure - think instead of whining - related to the Desert of Desolation module, above, when I refused to concede to their frustrated demand to "Just let us out of this damn maze!!!" It wasn't until, *finally* one of them had the brains to climb up and out of the maze after entering a set of rooms that allow this. God forbid they actually (gasp) draw a map!?!?!)

Players are generally lazy. When you find the good ones, as I now have, you treasure them and keep them and make sure no other DM steals them from you....

Having said that, Deserts of Desolation does have some very frustrating bits so I might be slightly sympathetic toward the players here.

"We don't want your character because he is evil" (Stated when I, as a PC rather than a DM, used Summon Monster to summon a demon - which we needed to fight what we were fighting.)

As mentioned above, drop your old PC and let them live with the consequences. If you end up running an against the pirates/by portal to Kara-Tur adventure as suggested above, they might find that they don't need a rogue for the traps. Of course, I'm not sure who's going to detect the sneaky ninja that are creeping up on them....

"You are a b*****d and this isn't right." (Loud complaints when I refused to give one player any XP for an encounter in which his Paladin of Tyr purposely killed fleeing women and children (granted, they were xvarts, but still), clearly against the whole idea of a Good character - who *at the most* should have only subdued them.)

Hmmm, and they haven't considered that most DMs would have removed the character's paladinhood? I think you need to sit this player down with a copy of Tyr's dogma and a copy of the paladin's code and ask him to justify what he did in terms of both.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a bit of work to do as the DM to train this group. Give them what they want (more or less) in a way that keeps you happy as well.