Pathfinder 2E Paizo drops use of the word phylactery

[MaskedGuy]

It honestly is good move to change it. Like because I learned word phylactery through rpgs, I didn't realize for years its anything close to box shaped object. Heck I wasn't aware of word being associated with Judaism until I heard this news <_<

Like lich phylacteries could be anything from music box to needle in haystack to mercury pool. "Phylactery" as word makes about as much sense as using "literally" to mean "figuratively"

 

[Argyle King]

The reclaimation of 'queer' has mostly been driven less by modern culture and more so by modern LGBTQIA+ culture (which are pretty different), and I will note it is not 'universal'; it obviously doesn't cover other languages, and it's not a term I would use to refer to myself personally.

Reclaimation is a complicated thing; like all culture is. I'm not sure I would call it evolution or rejection of reclaimation as not evolution however. It's more so a process with undeterminable result, and certainly involves 'generational' changes.


This is off-topic and we're going a bit away from the point, but I do feel the need to address it.

Not to dwell on it too much there were a ton of problems around Chappelle's pretty heavily transphobic 'jokes' and bits in his latest performance:

a) he blamed a trans comedian's suicide on some apparent bad reactions and harassment from 'the trans community' - something which the family heavily disputes.
b) he did not respect her identity during said program.
c) he called himself a TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist); since TERFs are against trans rights by default, he can't exactly claim to support trans people like he did during his performance.
d) several of the statements he said seemed to imply as if (at-least from an American perspective?) that the rights and struggles of black people and LGBTQIA+ people in the US are at odds with each other; in general, some of what he said seems to ignore the lives of black LGBTQIA+ people and in fact that, horrifically, trans black people (particularly trans black women) are heavily at risk of being murdered or to suffer violence.
e) he made some... pretty horrific references and comparisons between the results of sex reassignment surgery for trans women and fake goods.

I'm pointing this out more for awareness and why in particular that performance has (rightly) been called out as transphobic; I know for many Chappelle's comedic, especially in the past, meant something to them, but I think in the last while he's gone down a hateful path

...

Which is fair. I don't doubt that with the people I am likely to GM with, the use of phylactery wouldn't turn heads, and since I myself am not Jewish, I would necessarily be offended by it either.

But I do think the name change is positive, especially since it allows for more GM customisation of their world, and allows an easy way to get across the concept in one sentance.

I appreciate the thoughtful responses.

My opinions on the Chappelle thing are different. It's refreshing to be able to discuss something without immediate assumptions being made about my identity, views, or beliefs based upon a different opinion on a subject.

In regards to the Paizo change meaning more customization, I'm not sure that -for me personally- I see the term "Soul Cage" as something which is inherently better in terms of creativity.

But I think a company can make whatever changes they deem best for their product.

In some circumstances (but not necessarily this one,) a concern I have is whether or not choosing to be offended for a group when a group isn't themselves offended ends up being condescending and arguably more offensive via some manner of narcissistic savior complex.

 

[ReshiIRE]

My opinions on the Chappelle thing are different. It's refreshing to be able to discuss something without immediate assumptions being made about my identity, views, or beliefs based upon a different opinion on a subject.

Final post on this; I know this is getting too political for this forum, but I thought this was the best place to put this.

If the view you are talking about is what Chappelle said - do you understand why people, particularly trans people, may wrongly make those assumptions, however? Especially if, after those reasons I have listed above, you are saying you just see it differently?

There is still a lot of hurt* over what Chappelle said and the fact he refuses to apologise for it; he, in fact, released a joke reply statement earlier this week - almost treating it as a PR campaign. With recent awful articles from the BBC (and British media in general) about trans people, this hurt is getting worse.

So while it can be wrong to make these assumptions or be, well, not exactly polite... for most trans people, particularly those out and about just trying to live their lives, they have to deal with being questioned by real life people and the media about who they are. That is going to lead to resentment. That's going to lead to lashing out.

I don't know your identity and if you are trans or queer I'm preaching to the converted in many cases; but do understand that with all this naughty word going on, people are starting to fray at the edges.

We just want to live our lives. We really did not choose this. Chappelle, Rowling - they get to choose to hate us and get to face no consequences.

* mainly in the online communities I see - but for a variety of reasons, particularly the current coronavirus circumstances and my own living arrangements, I am unable to regularly, if at all, talk with other trans people in real life.

 

[Argyle King]

Final post on this; I know this is getting too political for this forum, but I thought this was the best place to put this.

If the view you are talking about is what Chappelle said - do you understand why people, particularly trans people, may wrongly make those assumptions, however? Especially if, after those reasons I have listed above, you are saying you just see it differently?

There is still a lot of hurt* over what Chappelle said and the fact he refuses to apologise for it; he, in fact, released a joke reply statement earlier this week - almost treating it as a PR campaign. With recent awful articles from the BBC (and British media in general) about trans people, this hurt is getting worse.

So while it can be wrong to make these assumptions or be, well, not exactly polite... for most trans people, particularly those out and about just trying to live their lives, they have to deal with being questioned by real life people and the media about who they are. That is going to lead to resentment. That's going to lead to lashing out.

I don't know your identity and if you are trans or queer I'm preaching to the converted in many cases; but do understand that with all this naughty word going on, people are starting to fray at the edges.

We just want to live our lives. We really did not choose this. Chappelle, Rowling - they get to choose to hate us and get to face no consequences.

* mainly in the online communities I see - but for a variety of reasons, particularly the current coronavirus circumstances and my own living arrangements, I am unable to regularly, if at all, talk with other trans people in real life.

The short version (so as to not derail the thread):

My views on that particular topic have three broad sections.

•I believe there to be legitimate reasons as to why some people are hurt, offended, etc.
•I believe it is fair to say there are instances of some people being upset without having viewed the material.
•I believe there are some people who have legitimate reasons for not feeling hurt, offended, and etc.

I find the idea that a member of the trans community must subscribe to some sort of monolithic group opinion about an issue to be in and of itself problematic. I think that mindset may have contributed to Daphne's death.

I do not perceive you as being someone who holds the aforementioned idea.

In terms of feelings, emotions, and offense; I only claim to speak for myself. On my own individual basis, I did not feel negatively toward Chappelle, and I do not find it problematic for a lich to use a phylactery.

My anecdotal perception is that most of the people with whom I have personal interactions feel similarly (even those who fall within groups who are told they should be offended,) but I'm aware there are people who have different views, opinions, and feelings.

In other matters, my own feelings may be different -as I imagine different circumstances and situations would also lead to different feelings from others.

 

[Hussar]

I take a slightly different point of view of this. Recently, I've been rewatching/relistening to some old comedy from my teens. Robin Williams Live at the Met, for example. Still funny as heck and actually holds up pretty well. Sure, this is Robin Williams and he's sort of an equal opportunity offender, but, at the end of the day, there's little in there that's hurtful. At least IMO.

Then I listened to Eddie Murphy's RAW. Yeesh. That does not stand up well at all.

So, when I look at Dave Chappelle, I think to myself, which category is he going to be in in twenty or thirty years? Will this stand the test of time or not? Given the comics of the past, I really, really don't think it will. Chappelle will be remembered in the same vein as Andrew Dice Clay. A shock comic of the time, but, in the end, completely forgettable.

Sorry, this is WAYYY off topic.

--------
@Greg K - thank you for the background. I do appreciate it. But, my question still stands, so what? Why does the fact that other groups are using the term holocaust to describe their genocides (IOW, using the word in the intended meaning) have anything to do with using phylactery in D&D - a term that very much isn't using the word in any of its intended meanings?

You called it a straw man, but, it's an actual question. What is your point? From where I'm standing, that's what it looks like - because we can repurpose this word, it's okay to repurpose any word?

 

[Hussar]

Y'know, just on the point about personal offense.

I'll be perfectly honest. I've used the term phylactery for decades without knowing anything about it. It was just a funky D&D word to me, so, it's not like I found it offensive or anything like that. And, frankly, nor did anyone ever say anything to me about it being a problem. So, sure, as far as great, massive issues go, this is pretty small potatoes.

But, it is such a small part of such a larger issue. I'm 48 years old. I grew up surrounded by language that today wouldn't be acceptable used for all sorts of people. I used that language too. Of course I did. So did everyone around me. Forty years ago the word autistic, to use an example, certainly wasn't part of anyone's common vocabulary that I ever heard. And it certainly wasn't the term we used, unfortunately.

Language changes. It happens. We might resist it. We might go on about "political correctness" or whatever. Sure. But, at the end of the day, it has proven to be a good thing. Stepping back and seeing how language has shifted in the past thirty or forty years, there are definite signs that things are, if not better, certainly not worse than they used to be.

My point is, the issue is really about who takes offense or does it offend me personally. That doesn't really matter. It's the larger conversation that needs to be addressed. It is a bad idea to borrow concepts from various cultures and then apply those concepts to things that are not related to their meaning. I teach ESL and have for a very long time. The various "lish's" - Japlish, Konglish etc - are filled with these sorts of false cognates and all it does is impair understanding.

And, really, "LIch's Phylactery" at the end of the day, is a false cognate. It's a borrowed word from another language that has had its meaning changed in the new language into something that the original language wouldn't even begin to link. Sure, this is a really, REALLY esoteric word that no one outside of D&D gaming circles would even begin to care about. But, it's still part of the same issue of borrowing words without actually bothering to understand what that word means.

 

[Ixal]

Y'know, just on the point about personal offense.

I'll be perfectly honest. I've used the term phylactery for decades without knowing anything about it. It was just a funky D&D word to me, so, it's not like I found it offensive or anything like that. And, frankly, nor did anyone ever say anything to me about it being a problem. So, sure, as far as great, massive issues go, this is pretty small potatoes.

But, it is such a small part of such a larger issue. I'm 48 years old. I grew up surrounded by language that today wouldn't be acceptable used for all sorts of people. I used that language too. Of course I did. So did everyone around me. Forty years ago the word autistic, to use an example, certainly wasn't part of anyone's common vocabulary that I ever heard. And it certainly wasn't the term we used, unfortunately.

Language changes. It happens. We might resist it. We might go on about "political correctness" or whatever. Sure. But, at the end of the day, it has proven to be a good thing. Stepping back and seeing how language has shifted in the past thirty or forty years, there are definite signs that things are, if not better, certainly not worse than they used to be.

My point is, the issue is really about who takes offense or does it offend me personally. That doesn't really matter. It's the larger conversation that needs to be addressed. It is a bad idea to borrow concepts from various cultures and then apply those concepts to things that are not related to their meaning. I teach ESL and have for a very long time. The various "lish's" - Japlish, Konglish etc - are filled with these sorts of false cognates and all it does is impair understanding.

And, really, "LIch's Phylactery" at the end of the day, is a false cognate. It's a borrowed word from another language that has had its meaning changed in the new language into something that the original language wouldn't even begin to link. Sure, this is a really, REALLY esoteric word that no one outside of D&D gaming circles would even begin to care about. But, it's still part of the same issue of borrowing words without actually bothering to understand what that word means.

So should we stick to the original meaning of Phylactery which means protective amulet in Greek or should we accept that language drift, which includes Phylactery becoming a word for fantasy soul container thing, completely disconnected from its previous meanings?

I have the impression that language changes are used very selectively here.

 

[Hussar]

So should we stick to the original meaning of Phylactery which means protective amulet in Greek or should we accept that language drift, which includes Phylactery becoming a word for fantasy soul container thing, completely disconnected from its previous meanings?

I have the impression that language changes are used very selectively here.

Seriously? That's your take away?

Yeah, we're done here.

 

[Ixal]

Seriously? That's your take away?

Yeah, we're done here.

No, my take away is that you can't or don't want to answer the question.

 

[Cadence]

So should we stick to the original meaning of Phylactery which means protective amulet in Greek or should we accept that language drift, which includes Phylactery becoming a word for fantasy soul container thing, completely disconnected from its previous meanings?

I have the impression that language changes are used very selectively here.

It's primary meaning in English - since Wycliffe translated the bible into Middle English over a half millenia ago (a pretty widely owned if not read book over the years) has been tefillin according to things like the OED and various other dictionaries. It feels like that fits somewhere in the story of the word's usage .