Pathfinder 2E Paizo drops use of the word phylactery

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J.Quondam

CR 1/8
What happens when two peoples "lived experiences" contradict each other? Or are mutually exclusive? Lived experiences may be valid, in that they exist and are real, but by the very nature of their subjectivity they have limited, if any, utility when it comes to applying broad policy-like solutions.

You'll immediately have to start making determinations about which lived experiences override others or motivate/demand change and which don't - literally back in the exact same place you started.
Yes, and...?
Life is hard. People are messy, and you're never going to find a perfect solution, because the problem is going to keep changing.
Make whatever decision you make, in whatever way you make it. But don't be surprised when you have to do it again, immediately or later on, depending. Because you will have do it again.
Because life is hard, and people are messy, and you're never going to find a perfect solution.
 

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Filthy Lucre

Adventurer
Challenging moderation
And, by the way, if you are going to approach the discussion as if the human world, and human reasons for doing things follow strict and absolute logic, you will be sorely disappointed. Humans make use of shades of meaning, and many levels of priorities. If you aren't going to allow for that, this will not end well for you.
"My opinion as a mod is law because I am a mod". I'm not interested in your opinion unless you can argue for it and ground it in reason.
 

TheSword

Legend
Keeping phylactery for the healing or protective ones seems like it would have been a great choice to me too. Is the lich use the most common one in the game (an iconic monster, instead of a few of hundreds of magic items)?
Well Paizo have got thousands of monsters and thousands of magic items. It’s probably academic.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Will you accept that line of reasoning when the decision in question is offensive to you?
I would accept it as their justification. And if the matter was offensive enough to me that it wasn't even close to my personal line, then I would spend my $ elsewhere.*

* Unless it was arguing the merits of IPAs over Stouts and Hefes. Then I would conclude they suffered some form of malady clouding their judgements.
 


Filthy Lucre

Adventurer
Yes, and...?
Life is hard. People are messy, and you're never going to find a perfect solution, because the problem is going to keep changing.
Make whatever decision you make, in whatever way you make it. But don't be surprised when you have to do it again, immediately or later on, depending. Because you will have do it again.
Because life is hard, and people are messy, and you're never going to find a perfect solution.
That's not how organizational decisions are made. In any organization whether it be corporate or academic you cannot deal with every single possible issue on a case by case basis. That's the whole point of having rules/principles.
 


Yes. Destruction of the lich's soul asylum without casting dispel magic and remove curse first summons a guardian spirit known as a runaway train, a large iron golem (AC 0, MV 500" on tracks, 120 hp, #AT 1, D 10-100, MR as iron golem, AL NE) that rams through the party once and disappears.

S'all good. This is Pathfinder 2E. I have a monk with the Wrestler Archetype and Titan Wrestler. I'll suplex that motherf****r into the ground.

To my mind you don’t help prevent prejudice by removing references to a religion and cultures from the wider popular culture. You do it by educating people and exposing them to those cultures.

If the only phylacteries in the game were used by evil Liches then there might be a moral or social argument for renaming them. As has been said there are also phylacteries that heal wounds and help someone stay faithful. If the use in a game encourages a person to google phylactery and find out what they are in real life, all to the good I say.

I think you hit on a good idea that you should educate and expose people to different cultures. However, I think that's also why this is probably a good reason to take off-hand one-off references like phylactery out.

Like, "phylactery" doesn't really educate anyone or create a new understanding of the culture it came from or references. It was just sort of put there to be a bit exotic, as an offhand reference to a culture that is different from ours. There's a bunch of this in D&D, and while it's not necessarily offensive it's probably better to have conversations about these things and avoiding it in the future.

Does that mean you can never use "phylactery"? No, but I think if you are using a term that is generally specific to a culture, it needs to be deliberate: if you are creating a religion or ethnic group based around Jews and their various branches, then it would make sense. That certainly has the possibility of being fraught, but that's going to be up to how you execute on that. But you can see with stuff like the recent Mwangi Expanse book that you can make referential cultures and be properly respectful while not just lifting them wholesale.

On the other hand, if you are just using it as a throwaway reference to a real-world culture and not actually something in your world, then you're just making the D&D lore equivalent of a Family Guy reference joke: it's not about actually fitting it into the story, but rather that you might know something about this outside of the game itself. Heck, even if you expand it out, just making an extended reference without putting thought into it will likely end up bad. Since this is Pathfinder, lemme go to a place that I think is conceptually interesting but is badly executed: Galt.

Galt is French Revolution land, a place that is continually stuck in the Terror. The entire thing is based off references, but not actually made into a living, breathing place: it's stuck in time like a theme park. I think there is actually really fertile ground there, but but we never get to any of it because the setting is based off reference and not with a coherent idea of how it is meant actually act.

And look: I don't really think Galt is offensive, but it also shows the low ceiling for tossing out references. Phylactery fits closer to this, where the name is referential, but that's it. It doesn't educate or create a greater understanding. That's something we should be moving away from, and part of that requires analyzing what stuff is like that and whether or not it can/should be salvaged. There are plenty of other things that we can have that discussion. And let me be clear: while I don't think everything discussed should be changed, at the same time it deserves honest discussion. But we have to move away from reflexive sensitivity towards looking at these things.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I find this interesting on a few levels. The main one involves religion and taboos.

if game related material offends your spirituality and religious practices there is a chance you’re not the target audience.

in the bad old days I had a friend who could not play due to the satanic panic. His family’s ideas about how to practice the faith made it taboo.

how many Orthodox Jews are playing and offended by the fictionalization of phylacteries? I mean some somewhere?

there are some who still worship Egyptian and other pantheons. some Christian use holy water and we can buy and toss it in game.

some like my religious friends found demons and magic to be uncool and unacceptable.

here on enworld we have had satans stats, angels and saints with stats. You can confront and kill any of them in game if you use them.

if you cannot separate your faith and the game how is the game something you are into? Someone will say yeah, but this culture.

I look forward to the day when we divest ourself of anything with cultural loading. The sword shall become a pointy metal weapon until we look at those root words and play 10 degrees of Kevin bacon.
 

I find this interesting on a few levels. The main one involves religion and taboos.

if game related material offends your spirituality and religious practices there is a chance you’re not the target audience.

in the bad old days I had a friend who could not play due to the satanic panic. His family’s ideas about how to practice the faith made it taboo.

how many Orthodox Jews are playing and offended by the fictionalization of phylacteries? I mean some somewhere?

there are some who still worship Egyptian and other pantheons. some Christian use holy water and we can buy and toss it in game.

some like my religious friends found demons and magic to be uncool and unacceptable.

here on enworld we have had satans stats, angels and saints with stats. You can confront and kill any of them in game if you use them.

if you cannot separate your faith and the game how is the game something you are into? Someone will say yeah, but this culture.

I look forward to the day when we divest ourself of anything with cultural loading. The sword shall become a pointy metal weapon until we look at those root words and play 10 degrees of Kevin bacon.

If you're not going to engage with the culture behind the word, what reason are you using it for other than exoticism? You don't need to be offended to know when something is lazy and probably shouldn't be done.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an affirmative defense as to why it needs to remain "phylactery" that doesn't involve "It's always been like this" or a slippery slope argument.
 

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