Paladin Actions - Appropriate?

IanB said:
But in any case, after thinking about this overnight, I think the DM (or module writer, if they're different) may possibly deserve some blame for setting up a situation where the paladin is stuck with making an agreement with an imp.

I think there's a difference between "Making an agreement with this creature may provide some advantage", and "Making an agreement with this creature is necessary to proceed with the adventure".

If the enemy stronghold is literally impenetrable - it's guaranteed that you will be detected and killed if you try to get in - and the only way to circumvent this is to deal with the traitor who demands a virgin sacrifice before he'll cooperate, it's a no-win situation for the paladin.

If the enemy stronghold is formidable - good chance of death, but potentially doable - but the danger can be waved away by dealing with the traitor who demands a virgin sacrifice before he'll cooperate, the paladin can certainly refuse to deal, preferring the risky but morally-less-repugnant option.

If the enemy stronghold is formidable - good chance of death, but potentially doable - but the danger can be waved away by dealing with the traitor who demands a bag of gold and a pardon for past misdeeds... the paladin might choose to take the deal. But if he does so, I'd consider it extremely dishonorable of him to then cut the traitor down once they were inside the stronghold. If he doesn't, he takes his chances with the guards.

The no-win situation isn't a fair one to put before the players when there's a paladin in the party. Essentially, you've said "This adventure is impossible for the paladin to get through".

The other two options? I don't think there's anything wrong with presenting those situations to a paladin.

-Hyp.
 

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IanB said:
But... why would a paladin need proof when talking about a devil? Devils and demons exist in large part to give PCs something unambiguous to fight - you *know* a demon is evil, there's no questionable motivations or moral grey territory, just get smiting. Back the camera out a little farther and look at this from a game design perspective. If the design goal in this encounter is to provide the party with an ambiguous moral decision, don't use an imp.

See, I think I am reaching a point where I need to leave the discussion. And the reason isn't because it is getting too personal or anything. It is just that I have a serious problem with the premise that anything can be created for the sole purpose of giving anyone a carte blanche in killing. It just isn't how I game. I never want to even feel myaself rationalizing game violence from a good-aligned character by saying, "It's okay, demons and devils are put into the game so that they die." It just doesn't *feel* right to me. And please understand that I feel this way about good aligned characters. Neutral and evil characters are a different story. I'm not saying good characters can't fight and even kill. I'm saying that it should never be such a black and white issue of "it's okay to kill it, because they're assumed evil." The potential for redemption should always negate assumed killing. Sure, redemption is difficult. But no more difficult than assumed killing. On that note, I don't think I can go any farther. It's a variation of morals, ethics, and understanding of good/evil where the differences are. It isn't a game mechanic problem any more. It's an ethics/morality problem.

Hyp said:
I'll just get in a Preemptive Moderatorial Sneak Attack (Banzai!), and remind people of EN World's policy regarding discussion of politics.

Just in case anyone's tempted

Thanks for the clarification. Please understand that my intention was not to start that type of a hijack. I was merely trying to respond to an earlier comment, and if I pushed the line it was unintentional!
 

Nonlethal Force said:
Please understand that my intention was not to start that type of a hijack. I was merely trying to respond to an earlier comment, and if I pushed the line it was unintentional!

The comment wasn't directed at you, or indeed at anyone - note that it was a preemptive warning.

-Hyp.
 

From my point of view:

The imp was clearly trying to decieve the party by remaining invisible.
Answer this question: Would the party have made the agreement if the imp was visible? It's clear the answer must be no.

The paladin would not have made an agreement with the imp - he is forbidden to do so. Paladin's should not willing enter into an agreement with evil outsiders, that's pretty clear. So, he was tricked into the agreement.

Why did the imp do it? because they love to corrupt mortals - and doing this to a paladin is exactly what they want to do. The whole associating with evil thing is a classic way to "break" a Paladin.

I believe that the paladin should uphold the agreement made (he passivly agreed by not raising any objections). That's part of being Lawful - you should stick to your word.

When it becomes obvious that it was a trick and the terms of the agreement have been satisfied he should Smite the imp at the earliest oportunity.
 

Veril said:
The imp was clearly trying to decieve the party by remaining invisible.
I can't accept that he was decieving them by remaining invisible. He was withholding info, but they knew that info had been withheld. If there was something that info could be that would make the deal unacceptable, they should have insisted on clarification before agreeing. But any deception was essentially agreed to by the party.

If the Imp had been disguised as something else and make the deal in that guise, that would have been deception. But when you make a deal with something that you clearly and explicitly don't know the identity of, you don't get to cancel the deal later because you didn't know their identity.

If you are offered a low cost cruise on the basis that "you will share your room with someone whose identity will be reveal upon check-in, to be referred to as "Cruiser X" in the remainder of this document" and you agree to it, you have not been deceived if you check in and it's your old college ex. You can't say "I wouldn't have agreed if I knew I'd be sharing a room with HIM!" because you knew you could be sharing a room with anyone, and if there was a limit to that anyone that would have made you not accept the deal, you should have tried to clarify it before signing.

Anonymity is not the same thing as a false identity. One attempts to decieve, while the other lays the ambiguity out to be accepted or not.
 

Nonlethal Force said:
See, I think I am reaching a point where I need to leave the discussion. And the reason isn't because it is getting too personal or anything. It is just that I have a serious problem with the premise that anything can be created for the sole purpose of giving anyone a carte blanche in killing. It just isn't how I game. I never want to even feel myaself rationalizing game violence from a good-aligned character by saying, "It's okay, demons and devils are put into the game so that they die." It just doesn't *feel* right to me. And please understand that I feel this way about good aligned characters. Neutral and evil characters are a different story. I'm not saying good characters can't fight and even kill. I'm saying that it should never be such a black and white issue of "it's okay to kill it, because they're assumed evil." The potential for redemption should always negate assumed killing. Sure, redemption is difficult. But no more difficult than assumed killing. On that note, I don't think I can go any farther. It's a variation of morals, ethics, and understanding of good/evil where the differences are. It isn't a game mechanic problem any more. It's an ethics/morality problem.

Well, obviously that is your prerogative - I would just point out that we're discussing something that doesn't have a real world analogue of any kind. Demons and devils aren't really living creatures in the sense that a rabbit or an orc or even a mind flayer are - they're sort of spiritual manifestations of a philosophy, and in this case of Evil with a capital E. Do your good PCs have to worry about fighting undead in the same way? Constructs? I see demons and devils as having more in common with the undead than they do with 'normal' living creatures, personally. They're more evil spirits than anything with any kind of ecological niche. Again, from a design perspective, like the undead, I feel they give you a tool you can use as a DM to give players a break from thorny moral problems and such - and they do it without screwing over classes that rely on will saves and sneak attack. ;)
 

I believe that the paladin should uphold the agreement made (he passivly agreed by not raising any objections). That's part of being Lawful - you should stick to your word.
The paladin never agreed. If you're being arrested by a cop, are you passively agreeing to his assumption of guilt because you go along with him (with little/no protest)?

Also, a lot of people on this board seem to feel that being Lawful means never or not being able to lie or break an agreement. That's not true either. Lawful people everyday, everywhere tell lies in some magnitude. Maybe to spare someone hurt feelings, maybe something more dramatic, but it happens. And it doesn't make them Chaotic to do so. Or even Neutral. It just means they are Lawful and lie on occassion. Remember, part of being Lawful (Good) is taking the concerns and welfare of society over your own personal needs (such as the compulsion to fulfill your word). No one in their right mind would think the paladin wrong for not continuing his agreement with the imp. Besides his class prohibits him from continuing such agreements without facing the consequences of losing his status as a paladin.

When it becomes obvious that it was a trick and the terms of the agreement have been satisfied he should Smite the imp at the earliest oportunity.
Which he did! And, after the terms of the agreement was met. Yet some people around here still think the agreement was in effect when he took out the imp--and it wasn't!!

I can't accept that he was decieving them by remaining invisible. He was withholding info, but they knew that info had been withheld. If there was something that info could be that would make the deal unacceptable, they should have insisted on clarification before agreeing. But any deception was essentially agreed to by the party.
That's about the dumbest argument I've heard on this topic so far! Whatever the reason (player inexperience, in-game time constraints, etc.), that proposal is even more ridiculous than everyone else believing the paladin even agreed to the agreement to begin with! The fact is that the imp was deceiving them by remaining invisible. Not a single person in that group would have agreed to work together with the inp had it revealed its nature ahead of time. Hell, the paladin probably would have Smitten it on the spot! Again, I'm sure there were plenty of reasons for the group not being able to sit down and ask the imp (or anyone else in any other encounter) 20 questions until they were 100% satisfied on the creature's identity, intentions, goals and motivations.

If the Imp had been disguised as something else and make the deal in that guise, that would have been deception. But when you make a deal with something that you clearly and explicitly don't know the identity of, you don't get to cancel the deal later because you didn't know their identity.
Says who? Invisibility is an even bigger deception than disguise. And sure you do. Why? Because the imp deceived them! Agreements, like contracts, are made in good faith on both sides. If one side breaks that faith (such as by withholding information that would result in the contract never having been made to begin with--or information that would prevent one party from being bound to the terms of the agreement), such as the paladin learning the identity of the imp, then the agreement is not valid. The paladin would actually be forbidden from continuing an agreement with the imp as that would have directly been furthering the cause of evil. And for a paladin to further the cause of evil is an evil act which means the paladin now becomes a feat-less Fighter.

If you are offered a low cost cruise on the basis that "you will share your room with someone whose identity will be reveal upon check-in, to be referred to as "Cruiser X" in the remainder of this document" and you agree to it, you have not been deceived if you check in and it's your old college ex. You can't say "I wouldn't have agreed if I knew I'd be sharing a room with HIM!" because you knew you could be sharing a room with anyone, and if there was a limit to that anyone that would have made you not accept the deal, you should have tried to clarify it before signing.
In your example, nothing is prohibiting said cruiser from having to stay in that room, change rooms with someone else or even stay on the ship and not get off at the next port. That example has next to nothing to do with the OP's post.

Anonymity is not the same thing as a false identity. One attempts to decieve, while the other lays the ambiguity out to be accepted or not.
It is not the same when the ambiguous side knows that the other party won't agree to a damn thing if it revealed itself. That's called a deception, or lie of omission. All you're trying to do with your argument is blame the victim (oddly enough, not the one that was killed). What you're arguing is no different than saying someone who got raped or beaten up deserved it just because they couldn't fight off their attacker.
 

Hawken said:
What you're arguing is no different than saying someone who got raped or
beaten up deserved it just because they couldn't fight off their attacker.

Whoa whoa whoa! Inappropriate. So was the part where you described an argument as "stupid". If we want this discussion to be able to continue (and I have been enjoying it up until this post), we need to keep it civil.
 

The paladin never agreed. If you're being arrested by a cop, are you passively agreeing to his assumption of guilt because you go along with him (with little/no protest)?

Just because X doesn't always equal Y, doesn't mean X never equals Y.

Or, to put it another way, there's a huge difference between remaining silent in the face of accusations, and remaining silent when a group, that you are clearly a part of, makes an agreement.

The former certainly does not suggest agreement, but the latter very much does, at least by implication. I'm part of this group. This group agrees to something, in my presence. Unless I raise an objection at the time, I am indeed giving at least a tacit agreement. If my intent is to wait and see, it's incumbent on me to say so. It may not be as binding as formally giving my word, but there's at least an argument to be made that I agreed.
 


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