Paladin Actions - Appropriate?

Thayan Law

Taking all arguments into account, I would inform the OP paladin that repeated actions of this nature (e.g., vengeance smitings) will shift his alignment towards Neutral Good ... or, possibly, Chaotic Good.

No powers lost; no clear Code violation ... yet.

-Samir​
 

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the Jester said:
I'm seeing a lot of "good trumps law" in this discussion... I don't agree with that; it depends entirely on the campaign.

Going by the default code of conduct for a paladin, they're in trouble if they ever willingly perform an evil act. They do not suffer the same fate if they ever willingly perform a chaotic one, insofar as that they don't do them on so regular a basis as to make themselves no longer Lawful Good.

By following that logic, yes, good does indeed trump law.
 

If you want to throw out pithy quotes, try this one: "For evil to flourish, all that good men have to do is nothing." For the paladin to have not done what he did would have been an evil act, worthy of him losing his powers temporarily. For him to actively support the pact and even defend it would have been an evil act worthy of being stripped of his status as a paladin permanently.

What he did, that's not ends justify the means at all. There is nothing in the paladin code that says paladin's have to give a 'warning shot' to any of their foes before sending them off. Fiends (evil outsiders) don't get warning shots because that gives them time to hurt someone else or escape and hurt someone else later. They are unremittingly evil. Undead aren't offered a chance to surrender because by the very nature of their existence they are Evil--same with devils and other fiends.

The imp knew being around the paladin would be dangerous, but it stayed. It had plenty of time to flee, just leave, or do what it had to while the paladin and group were fighting. Instead it revealed itself and counted on being able to talk its way out of extinction. With its Suggestion power, just letting the imp talk was dangerous enough on its own, muchless waiting for it to do something or stalk and spy on the group unaware and plan their unsuspecting deaths.

The group making a deal with the imp is where "the ends justify the means" comes into play--especially that the rest of the group were still willing to go along with the deal once they learned it was an imp. By slaying the imp, the paladin was avoiding "the ends justify the means" as well as preventing his friends from falling down that slippery slope too. His actions were lawful and good.

In the same way a cashier is not authorized to approve corporate mergers, a paladin is not authorized by his deity/church/gov't to enter into binding agreements with fiends. His obligations to the source of his abilities precludes him from being able to do that. They cannot knowingly associate with evil or continue such associations. The imp knew that and still sought to make a deal that it knew the paladin could not accept. That is false pretenses. Contracts and agreements are done in 'good faith' while those done under false pretenses, by most courts are invalidated. Or you could look at it like the agreement was breached by the imp for being an imp since both it and the paladin knew that the paladin is forbidden to enter into any binding agreements with such beings.

Smiting evil is the main thing that paladins do.
Hear, hear! And that's "Smite Evil", not "Smite Evil After Giving Fair Warning". And to those of you that say the paladin violated his honor by popping the imp off immediately; I want you to tell me what code of honor any paladin subscribes to that offers fiends a warning shot before smiting them! An enemy soldier on the battlefield, sure. Someone approaching the paladin as an equal but enemy, yeah. But an immortal, evil being who trafficks in souls and torment? Not a chance. Their 'warning' is just knowing they are within Detect Evil range of a paladin.

What deception?
The omission of its true nature. It knew there would be no way in Hell (pun intended) that the group would have agreed to the plan had they known their "ally" was an imp. That's called full disclosure, and it wasn't present for that agreement. The imp knew the only way they would agree is if they didn't know what they were bargaining with.

Did the paladin disclose he was a paladin when the agreement was made?
He doesn't need to. Imps know paladins are forbidden to enter into agreements with Evil creatures. Therefore by not disclosing its true nature, it voided the agreement with the paladin.

Is refraining from smiting a creature with whom one has a truce an evil act? I'd say not.
Yes, it is. Especially when that truce was established under false pretenses and the mere presence of the imp compelled the paladin to take it out based on his code of conduct.

Does refraining from smiting a creature with whom one has a truce violate 'respect legitimate authority' or 'help those in need'? I'd say not.
Yes, it does. Because doing so brings mountains of disrespect for the authority the paladin serves (deity, gov't, etc.) and it violates the 'help those in need' by further the cause of a known evil being pursuing an evil goal which would result in greater suffering for others.

Is the Imp one who is harming or threatening innocents, necessitating punishment? He may do at some time in the future, but there is no clear and present danger.
It doesn't say 'harming' or 'threatening', it states, "those who harm or threaten" meaning those who have harmed/threatened, those who are harming/threatening, and those who will harm/threaten. It is not that the imp may do it in the future, its that it is guaranteed that it has done it and will do it again. Paladins can't let something like that go unpunished.

Does smiting a creature with whom one has a truce violate 'act with honor'? Oh, hell, yes.
Oh, hell no! The truce was invalid from the beginning--as explained above--so the paladin was free to Smite away. Besides Smite Evil does not have a clause in it to the effect of, "unless you have a pre-existing agreement with an evil being".

There was no code violation. Hyp, you're picking an choosing words out of the code to try to support your argument. When the code itself and everything in the PHB supports the paladin Smiting Evil. And its not a case might be made about fiends, that case was made eons ago! They do threaten others just by their existence. By their existence they harm others (tormenting/bartering souls for eternity does qualify for both of those things).

I wouldn't consider honouring the agreement to be a violation of the code. Nor do I feel that a Paladin is required to automatically smite at the first ping on the Evildar.
If you wouldn't, then you're not thinking from the perspective of a paladin. Paladins have a greater agreement not to enter into those bargains in the first place, and by their own code, they are forbidden from continuing such agreements (or in your words, honouring). They dedicate their life and soul to their authority figure, that trumps any other agreements they can make on their own. In fact, they are no longer their own person, but instead agents of their authority figure; and I don't think there's any god of Good and/or Law that would allow their paladin servants to enter into agreements with fiends.

Also, paladins may not be required to Smite at the first ping of their Evil-dar (I like that term), but they sure as heck can't be penalized for it either. That's what its there for--to let them know who is a viable candidate for Smiting! When and how is of course up to the discretion of the paladin.
 

Hawken said:
The omission of its true nature. It knew there would be no way in Hell (pun intended) that the group would have agreed to the plan had they known their "ally" was an imp. That's called full disclosure, and it wasn't present for that agreement. The imp knew the only way they would agree is if they didn't know what they were bargaining with.

Heh, and in all fairness, this is a devil we're talking about here.

The particulars of contract law should be something it's already very, very familiar with.

:p
 

There is due to be a battle. You're a paladin, advisor and confidant of the general of your army. The general has reason to want the battle delayed a couple of days - perhaps reinforcements are en route, or preparations need to be made, or whatever. To this end, he has arranged a parlay with the opposition.

The two generals will meet under a flag of truce to discuss matters. Each general may bring one associate. Your general chooses you.

When you reach the site of the parlay, you discover that the opposing general has chosen, as his associate, an Erinyes.

Do you, as a Paladin, have a right to break the truce your general agreed to and smite the devil? After all, you weren't informed beforehand that he'd be bringing a fiend to the meeting. If you do so, does this mean the entire truce is void, and you are no longer obliged to honour the opposing general's safe conduct either?

Do you, as a Paladin, have a duty to break the truce your general agreed to and smite the devil?

Do you, as a Paladin, have a responsibility to withdraw from the negotiations, so as not to 'willingly associate with an evil creature'?

-Hyp.
 
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Hawken said:
The omission of its true nature. It knew there would be no way in Hell (pun intended) that the group would have agreed to the plan had they known their "ally" was an imp. That's called full disclosure, and it wasn't present for that agreement. The imp knew the only way they would agree is if they didn't know what they were bargaining with.

He doesn't need to. Imps know paladins are forbidden to enter into agreements with Evil creatures. Therefore by not disclosing its true nature, it voided the agreement with the paladin.

How was the imp supposed to know he was a paladin?

-Hyp.
 

Sam said:
I sat back and enjoyed the interplay at the table and will award roleplaying xp for it, but I'm not sure if he should have any repercussions as a paladin for his actions.

Any thoughts?

If it was inconsistent with the way the the paly had been played previously, then there should be repercussions.

There should be repercusions for using "I wasn't the one that agreed" defence.

Most other things need to be worked out by you and the player since you don't seem too upset about things.
I as a player would not have taken that route unless my backstory had me hating fiends more than usual, and I'd have some problems as a DM in this case.
 

Do you, as a Paladin, have a right to break the truce your general agreed to and smite the devil? After all, you weren't informed beforehand that he'd be bringing a fiend to the meeting. If you do so, does this mean the entire truce is void, and you are no longer obliged to honour the opposing general's safe conduct either?
The issue of 'rights' is irrelevant and misleading. The paladin in question could smite or not smite. If the paladin had quick draw, took a swipe (smite + power attack, two-handed swing, etc, etc.) at the Erinyes...well, 'accidents' do happen--"Sorry, General, when these fiends are about, my keen holy thundering fiend-bane sword seems to have a life of its own! Perhaps if we had known the (opposing) general was in league with fiends, I would have been better prepared. (to the Erinyes) Oh--are you still alive? Dreadfully sorry about that...would you like me to Lay on Hands (sheathes sword, readies 2nd smite with spiked, blessed gauntlet)? (to all) Perhaps we should reconvene in a few days when the opposing advisor has had a chance to recover? That would be the honorable thing to do!"

It wouldn't mean the truce is voided. The paladin didn't make the truce, the opposing generals did. Whether the paladin smiting the fiend breaks the truce or not is up to the generals. Smiting won't necessarily break the truce--and in that case, the opposing general would likely consider strongly keeping the truce just to get his yet-to-be-smitten butt out of there alive rather than face his opposite and paladin advisor.

Also the paladin would not have to withdraw from negotiations because he is not the one negotiating (associating). He is the one advising. The generals are doing the negotiating. And with a battle imminent, the paladin, rightfully expecting to find the Erinyes during the upcoming battle could definitely wait it out and slay her a few days later if an 'accidental' Smite didn't happen. With his general planning a battle against the Erinyes, that wouldn't offend the paladin's moral code at all, muchless enough for him to withdraw his aid from the general.

How was the imp supposed to know he was a paladin?
The imp has Detect Good--the blinding aura of holiness pouring off the paladin would be a good clue (along with the fact of the paladin wielding very un-cleric-like weapons). Then there's that pesky telepathy that lets the imp 'hear' the group's thoughts (if not their actual words) which would likely include the mention of the word 'paladin' at least half a dozen times or possibly even the phrase thought or spoken, "Oh crap! The paladin's never gonna go for this! Whaddaya say, guys?"

There should be repercusions for using "I wasn't the one that agreed" defence.
Unless the paladin was the leader of the group (more often than not the way it is). If he was group leader, the paladin would not be beholden to any agreements the others made without his knowledge. If he wasn't leader, considering his class and code of honor, he still wouldn't be beholden to any agreement with fiends and his companions would already know that.
 

Hawken said:
What he did, that's not ends justify the means at all. There is nothing in the paladin code that says paladin's have to give a 'warning shot' to any of their foes before sending them off. .

I took “the end justifies the means” not about giving a warning shot, but about breaking a truce and attacking.

The imp knew being around the paladin would be dangerous

Did the imp KNOW that there was a paladin around when it struck the deal (does it matter either way)? The imp would probably know that being around A paly would be dangerous. If the imp did not know about the paly, would that change your opinion Hawken?

EDIT: Actually just read the Detect Good thing. There is an assumption that it was used before the agreement took place (not totally invalid).

The group making a deal with the imp is where "the ends justify the means" comes into play--especially that the rest of the group were still willing to go along with the deal once they learned it was an imp. By slaying the imp, the paladin was avoiding "the ends justify the means" as well as preventing his friends from falling down that slippery slope too. His actions were lawful and good. .

I don’t take the action as lawful (broke a truce). I’m leaning towards the act not being a good act (betrayal and all) except if some prior reasoning (attack all fiends regardless) was involved. Going along with the deal is a lawful act, but may not be a good act (not so important if not a paly)

a paladin is not authorized by his deity/church/gov't to enter into binding agreements with fiends. .

I would say that this also would preclude the party from having any authority to enter binding agreements to get paid for a job if the paly did not participate in the negotiations. I find the argument of “I wasn’t the one that agreed” an invalid one because the paly has to at least trusts that the party he is with which giving them authority. If the party is not legitimate authority in one case, it is not legitimate authority in the other case, fiend be damned.  Veto the deal right at the beginning, or accept it (and its repercussions).

His obligations to the source of his abilities precludes him from being able to do that. They cannot knowingly associate with evil or continue such associations. The imp knew that and still sought to make a deal that it knew the paladin could not accept. That is false pretenses. Contracts and agreements are done in 'good faith' while those done under false pretenses, by most courts are invalidated. Or you could look at it like the agreement was breached by the imp for being an imp since both it and the paladin knew that the paladin is forbidden to enter into any binding agreements with such beings.

Lets look at it from a reverse angle: does the paly have to reveal himself as a paly during negotiations to allow an employer to pay him? Why does it make a difference?
Then again, how does the imp know that he is a paladin? Given 8 PCs, maybe the imp was not going to betray for fear of its own safety?

It knew there would be no way in Hell (pun intended) that the group would have agreed to the plan had they known their "ally" was an imp. That's called full disclosure, and it wasn't present for that agreement. The imp knew the only way they would agree is if they didn't know what they were bargaining with.

No disagreement here, imps are tricky little devils!  But revealing that you are an imp (when as you say the imp KNOWS that there is a paly there) is Stupid Evil, which is on a par with Lawful Stupid.

Yes, it does. Because doing so brings mountains of disrespect for the authority the paladin serves (deity, gov't, etc.) and it violates the 'help those in need' by further the cause of a known evil being pursuing an evil goal which would result in greater suffering for others. ……. It doesn't say 'harming' or 'threatening', it states, "those who harm or threaten" meaning those who have harmed/threatened, those who are harming/threatening, and those who will harm/threaten. It is not that the imp may do it in the future, its that it is guaranteed that it has done it and will do it again. Paladins can't let something like that go unpunished.

Agreed that the paly can’t let it go unpunished, but I don’t think that punishment should have been meted out right now (and a “Defend yourself Field” is more in line with the character, not the paly role in my estimation). I believe that the DM and player need to flesh this out between them. My take on it is: He didn’t know, but that does not by necessity invalidate the truce it’s up to other aspects of the character to determine that

There was no code violation. Hyp, you're picking an choosing words out of the code to try to support your argument. When the code itself and everything in the PHB supports the paladin Smiting Evil. And its not a case might be made about fiends, that case was made eons ago! They do threaten others just by their existence. By their existence they harm others (tormenting/bartering souls for eternity does qualify for both of those things).

Paly’s should smite evil. They should also honour agreements that they make are that they agree to (even if only but not disagreeing to). When the two come into conflict, something has to give. But I don’t find Hyp picking and choosing words any more than you are Hawken

Also, paladins may not be required to Smite at the first ping of their Evil-dar (I like that term), but they sure as heck can't be penalized for it either. That's what its there for--to let them know who is a viable candidate for Smiting! When and how is of course up to the discretion of the paladin.

Actually by your own words, when and how is not up to the discretion of the paly. If it isn’t obviously suicidal the when is NOW and the how is SMITE.
 

Hawken said:
The issue of 'rights' is irrelevant and misleading. The paladin in question could smite or not smite. If the paladin had quick draw, took a swipe (smite + power attack, two-handed swing, etc, etc.) at the Erinyes...well, 'accidents' do happen--"Sorry, General, when these fiends are about, my keen holy thundering fiend-bane sword seems to have a life of its own! Perhaps if we had known the (opposing) general was in league with fiends, I would have been better prepared. (to the Erinyes) Oh--are you still alive? Dreadfully sorry about that...would you like me to Lay on Hands (sheathes sword, readies 2nd smite with spiked, blessed gauntlet)? (to all) Perhaps we should reconvene in a few days when the opposing advisor has had a chance to recover? That would be the honorable thing to do!"
Legitimate authority be damned?

It wouldn't mean the truce is voided. The paladin didn't make the truce, the opposing generals did. Whether the paladin smiting the fiend breaks the truce or not is up to the generals. Smiting won't necessarily break the truce--and in that case, the opposing general would likely consider strongly keeping the truce just to get his yet-to-be-smitten butt out of there alive rather than face his opposite and paladin advisor.

Also the paladin would not have to withdraw from negotiations because he is not the one negotiating (associating). He is the one advising. The generals are doing the negotiating. And with a battle imminent, the paladin, rightfully expecting to find the Erinyes during the upcoming battle could definitely wait it out and slay her a few days later if an 'accidental' Smite didn't happen. With his general planning a battle against the Erinyes, that wouldn't offend the paladin's moral code at all, muchless enough for him to withdraw his aid from the general.
Legitimate authority be Damned. Would it make a difference if it was a general of the paly order?

Unless the paladin was the leader of the group (more often than not the way it is). If he was group leader, the paladin would not be beholden to any agreements the others made without his knowledge. If he wasn't leader, considering his class and code of honor, he still wouldn't be beholden to any agreement with fiends and his companions would already know that.

Then veto the agreement, at the beginning not later. To do otherwise legitimises the agreement. Do you agree that if the agreement was for payment for a job, the paly could not take any $$ because he did not accept the job himself?
 

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