Paladin as a Prestige Class?

[hong]

Any successful ideas to make sure a player plays a Paladin, not a set of kewl powerz?

Send them up against challenges that require a paladin, as opposed to a bunch of mercenaries. You need a context to the campaign that extends beyond "kill the monsters and take their treasure".

If the players do want to take treasure, give the paladin's player a good reason to do the same. Or make treasure a secondary issue, by providing rewards in ways other than as loot.

Discourage the other party members from doing things that would force the paladin's player into making hard choices. Encourage the paladin to be a bit flexible, in the interests of group harmony.

Et voila, you have successfully avoided the issue of people not "roleplaying paladins correctly", and can get on with enjoying the game.

 

[LoneWolf23]

I highly recommend the AEG book GOOD to everyone interested in playing Paladins, or just Good aligned characters period. It's got a nice analysis of just what's the point of a Good character.

Simply put, Good Aligned characters are the Heroes. They're the White Hats. They're the folks who go out of their way, putting their lives on the line, to save lives.

And why would anyone want to be a Good guy when being Evil's much more fun? Simply because nobody likes a villain, while Everyone loves a hero.

To be honest, playing a Paladin sounds mind-numbingly simple to me: Just try to help others, obey the laws of the land (as long as they're fair), and don't suffer to see Evil stand unopposed. What do you get in return? Well, for starters people will like you a whole lot more then the folks who barge in with weapons and magic and try to loot the place.

But anyways...

As can be guessed, GOOD does deal with Paladins. One section offers suggestions on modifying the Paladin class, and alternate Paladin classes: The Avenger (Chaotic Good) and the Defender (Neutral Good), which complement the Paladin rather well.

And if that's not enough, the Prestige Class section offers the Paladine, a Prestige Class that fills in the Paladin's traditional role and possesses all it's abilities.

Hope this helps a little...

 

[gariig]

What about problems with the "Evil Geiger Counter"? No one in my campaign runs a paladin but I've heard of this being a problem. Having another character walk in and do the talk while the paladin sits back and does the detect evil for 18 seconds. Should you allow people to 'feel" like they are being probed, should it have a visible effect? I was wondering how people got around this.

Gariig

 

[Gargoyle]

What about problems with the "Evil Geiger Counter"? No one in my campaign runs a paladin but I've heard of this being a problem. Having another character walk in and do the talk while the paladin sits back and does the detect evil for 18 seconds. Should you allow people to 'feel" like they are being probed, should it have a visible effect? I was wondering how people got around this.

Gariig

Some thoughts:

- A well played paladin doesn't use detect evil like a cop uses radar to catch speeders. Paladins are defensive; they exist to "protect the innocent" and "punish those who threaten innocents", simply being evil isn't enough to warrant a paladin's wrath. Nowhere in the Code does it say that paladins must slay or hunt evil. Like Uncle Ben told Peter Parker, "Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should do it." However, it's perfectly acceptable for them to use the ability in an investigation or to ensure that they aren't associating with evil. They were given the ability for these reasons and should use it.

- The paladin's ability to detect evil works like the spell, and the spell makes no mention of the target "feeling" the divination, or of a visible effect like the displays of a psionic power. I would give the target a Spot check to see if he notices the guy in armor staring at him intently, though, even if he's behind him or concealed, there should be a chance to see him unless he's invisible or something.

- The problem with detection abilities is that sometimes DM's don't want the players to know that an NPC is evil. As you run higher level games, you'll soon realize that it's not just this ability that causes the problem; it's divination magic in general. The paladin ability is just the first you really notice, since it's available so early. Legend lore, speak with dead and other information gathering spells and items can make it difficult for a DM to keep a campaign mysterious. My advice is to make anti-divination available when it makes sense. Criminals in the city would find it relatively easy to get access to undetectable alignment spells and charms, and amulets of nondetection. A bandit in the wilderness would have a tougher time of it. Note that when faced with undetectable alignment, the paladins ability might backfire and lead the party to trust someone they shouldn't. It's a double-edged sword that a DM can use to keep the players on their toes.

Also, consider the fact that the smartest evil villains won't directly oppose a paladin. They'll send neutral mercenaries after them. Smite that.

Here's the content of a sidebar from Call of Duty touching on the issue: (BTW, thanks for the comments folks, we're really proud of this book and hope to have an expanded print version of it in stores next year.)

Dealing with Detection

The paladin’s detect evil ability, and the sensate’s detect evil thoughts can present problems for those attempting to run a campaign with lots of hidden villains. A mystery adventure is no fun when the players figure out that the butler did it within 5 minutes. High-level divination spells can unravel plots very quickly. There are two approaches a DM can take to makes such adventures challenging without taking away abilities from the player characters:

Fight fire with fire: The bad guys can use spells too. Undetectable alignment can foil detect alignment spells. Nondetection can be adequate protection from scrying. A villain using detect good may
spot the party as a threat before they spot him, and may take steps to avoid them…or to take them out first.

Give them lots to detect: Perhaps a city is filled with mildly evil people, or the masquerade ball the paladin is attending has mostly evil guests. This works best in civilized settings where paladins cannot just go around slaying everyone who shows up on their radar without breaking the law. If all the suspects are evil, then the paladin must do some detective work. However, do not forget that paladins were given the ability to detect evil for a reason: to find the enemy. Let them benefit from it most of the time without complications.

 

[LoneWolf23]

Also, consider the fact that the smartest evil villains won't directly oppose a paladin. They'll send neutral mercenaries after them. Smite that.

Nah, the really REALLY smart Evil Villains will set events so that two groups of Good guys will each be convinced that the other group are betrayers who have commited some horrible crime that so shocks each group that the anger takes over before reason can temper it.

Hopefully, by the time the Heroes are aware of what's really happened, one or more of them will have died by another hero's hand, thereby giving that hero some fierce levels of grief and causing bad blood all around.

Now THAT's Evil...

 

[reapersaurus]

Any successful ideas to make sure a player plays a Paladin, not a set of kewl powerz?

Ya.

Make sure that your Paladin player knows how to play a Paladin.

It's really about that simple.
Some people understand playing a Paladin, and others don't.
Give the player a chance to prove himself, and then act accordingly.
It's pretty obvious when someone knows how to play one and when they don't.

 

[GungHo]

I've often used Paladin as "prestige class" of sorts, even in 1E/2E. (basicaly obtainable through dual classing) I was first really turned onto the idea after playing the PC game Quest for Glory 2: Trial By Fire. One of the rewards of the endgame, provided you played honorably was Paladinhood. It seemed so much more special in that context.

 

[Mean DM]

The D20 Conversion Document for Harn lists both the Ranger and the Paladin as Prestige Classes for the Harn setting. I cannot remember the link but the document is a PDF download and it may be worth you checking out. Once I get home and have time to browse I'll see if I can find the link.

You can find it here. Enjoy!

Mean DM

 

[Painfully]

The paladin's detect evil ability has been a pet peeve of mine as a DM for a while now. Here are a few ideas to give the DM a bit more control:

1. Let the ability sense only powerful evil. Demons and devils and outsiders in general should apply here. But if they are powerful, it might be necessary to allow a custom form of a change self spell that includes hiding their alignment too if you want the paladin to interact with them in any way. Creatures that are purposefully comitted to evil or an evil organization might qualify, but those that act neutral more often than evil should not.

2. Keep it general. Make it more like a "spidey sense," that tells the paladin something evil is "in the area," but don't let him pinpoint any individuals. Let it just be a feeling of darkness that washes over him, warning him that what lies ahead is an unhallowed burial ground, but never warn of a den of pickpockets at a tavern.

3. Make it a passive ability. Fits well with #2 above. Don't let the paladin call out his ability, this is a divine power we're talking about here--it comes to him when it's needed. Just be sure to not miss any "evil spots" during the campaign that the paladin should have noticed. Now that you have control of it, you'll have to be sure to remember it for the paladin.

4. Consider giving this ability as a feat for clerics, and as a prerequisite feat for paladins (if they're a PrC). This is a useful way to limit the power level of the paladin (which I think is just a wee bit strong IMO), and offering this ability to good clerics (and the equivalant for evil clerics) seems like a no-brainer to me.

5. Make them say it out loud in the form of a prayer. This also works well in addition to #3. This kind of verbal warning to everyone around them should give enough time to take cover if they're in a crowd, or to attack the paladin if they're alone together. And it's fun to make the player say it in character too! I would say make it about a 15 sec verbal prayer starting with, "By the power of [deity's name] I shall seek out and punish all who oppose [domain name] and good. Reveal yourself to the light of [deity] or face judgement!" This one is a personal favorite of mine. Try practicing your Judge Dredd voice for this one the first time you use it on your players!

Well, I don't use all those IMC right now (nobody wants to be the cleric or paladin), but I've used each of them at one time or another. Have fun with those, and if you still need more I'll see what I can cook up.

 

[Shadeus]

I don't have my PHB in front of me, but IIRC detect evil is a spell-like ability. My DM typically plays it like you are casting a spell. Now put yourself in a fantasy setting...you are walking home from work and some guy on the street next to you, you don't know him, starts casting a spell. What would you do?

I'd run like hell before I got fireballed or worse.

The point being most commoners won't know a detect evil from a cure light wounds to a meteor swarm. Have the population panick in those situations.

Of course, they could initiate the spell out of site and then its just concentration. There's bound to be a jerk that comes along and shakes the paladin, "Hey, are you ok?"