Paladin Balance question

[Odhanan]

I agree with the consensus reached by your group: an "unfallen" paladin is no more powerful than any other class. The restrictions placed on them are purely for flavor.

Do you think that because there are restrictions placed on them because of flavor, they should be a bit more powerful than other classes?

 

[Hussar]

I can understand the need to give the paladin a bit of a benny for the restrictions. However, since its an rp restriction, perhaps a DM should keep the bennies rp. People give presents to the paladin for no reason, let him stay nice places for free, services and the like are offered up.

Unfortunately, most DM's I've seen take a very adversarial role with paladins and every NPC automatically hates them. But this has just been my experience.

 

[ST]

I personally don't think balancing mechanical benefits against roleplaying restrictions works well. That's been my experience GMing, anyway.

On some level maybe you can say 5 pounds of apples equals 5 pounds of oranges, but I don't think that's the case here. If nothing else, I've disliked the way it encouraged players to figure out ways to get around the restrictions (because then they get the bennies for "free"). For example, if there's a debate at the table about a hard moral question, I'd like it to spark real conflict in the game rather than an OOC debate equivalent to "no foul".

 

[Torm]

For example, if there's a debate at the table about a hard moral question, I'd like it to spark real conflict in the game rather than an OOC debate equivalent to "no foul".

And, one could make the argument that, for the other players, having to sit through such a debate when they could be gaming is a penalty from having a Paladin in their party, which also deserves some sort of compensation for their characters.

 

[sword-dancer]

Do you think that because there are restrictions placed on them because of flavor, they should be a bit more powerful than other classes?

Depends, IMC in most good Nations countries etc a Paladin is considered a knight(champion) of the Gods of light/Good.
They´ve the same Privileges as a knight and more, the right to bear arms and armour whenever - wherever they considered it right to do so, most knights aren`t allowed to bear weapons and armour on their own in cities.
Paladins could wear them in the court of kings, their oath or word isn`t to be doubted, maybe a paladin is tricked and so he is in error but at his bes knowledge this is considered the full truth.
The authoritie to intrude and search without warrant within reason.
The authority to hold court maybe(this only if considered capable of to act as one) in lawless regions , in extreme circumstances a pally could act without authorisation.

The possibilitie, if necessary to get back up fromother pallys, good churches, and orders.

 

[Silveras]

I do not think that the Paladin's code qualifies as using role-playing restriction to balance a mechanical benefit. Such restrictions in 2nd Edition were exemplified by requirements that certain kits spend 1 day per month "on duty" away from the party. In the end, such requirements were often not played out, and served no purpose, which is the reason for the philosophical decision to avoid such cases in 3rd Edition.

The Paladin's code, however, has the fairly heavy mechanical penalty of the temporary or permanent loss of abilities. That's something to keep in mind.

 

[urDrakas]

As stated above, it’s a mostly role-playing restriction for the player and the DM. But, this also allows role-playing benefits. Like it was stated above, room and board, good reactions, etc. Additionally, the paladin can be approached with plot hooks in some situations whereas other players might not be approachable.

 

[wilrich]

The Paladin's code, however, has the fairly heavy mechanical penalty of the temporary or permanent loss of abilities. That's something to keep in mind.[/QUOTE]

I think this post exemplifies just what I was driving at -- the Paladin's code is NOT a "role playing" restriction -- if a Paladin does not live up to his code, he suffers adverse mechanical effects, and those effects can be pretty punitive. So, saying that they're just role playing restrictions and don't need mechanical balancing ignores the fact that the Paladin's code IS a mechanical weakness or drawback to the class, and, therefore, should be balanced out by mechanical strengths in other areas.

I agree that if a DM is not very strict with imposing penalties for breaches of the paladin's code (and it THEN becomes more of a role playing restriction) then the Paladin is probably balanced with the other classes (although I do agree those posters who think that it is slightly weaker than the others). But, if a DM is going to impose the mechanical penalties and strictly enforce the code, then I think the Paladin is markedly weaker than the other classes.

 

[satori01]

The Paladin is a great class up to around 5th level. After 5th level and the question becomes do the Smite Evil, and spells keep it going. The Paladin Spell list is pretty good. While Paladin itself lacks the spell slots to really be on its own a great front line healer, with scrolls, and wands the Paladin can really be a cleric substitute for healing and restoration.

Bless Weapon is an awesome spell. Seeing a Paladin use Divine Might, Smite Evil, Power Attack with a Keen weapon can be an impressive sight to see. Again all you really need is 5th level to start pulling this combo off.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think this post exemplifies just what I was driving at -- the Paladin's code is NOT a "role playing" restriction -- if a Paladin does not live up to his code, he suffers adverse mechanical effects, and those effects can be pretty punitive.

But the restriction is on role-playing. The restriction is on acting in a certain way as a character. It's open to interpretation and deception and solvable with a simple Atonement (as long as the paladin is repentant -- and if not, there's always the blackguard).

The penalty only comes into play if the DM and the Player wish it to, after all.