Paladin Divine Challenge

[kaomera]

OK, so I'm working up a defender for a game I'm in, and I think I'm about to play my first Paladin since 1e. So I've been re-reading the books, and I'm finding Divine Challenge a bit oddly worded... I figured maybe it would have been re-written for clarity somewhere, but the Compendium just seems to copy-paste the PHB rules text.

(So, I'm sure all of this has been covered elsewhere, but that was probably back when the PHB1 first hit, and I can't find the relevant threads...)

1. If you use Divine Challenge on multiple targets (by default you can't, but I know that there are items, at least, that let you target multiple opponents with it) do you need to engage all of them, or lose the use of the power on your next turn? If you engage one target but not another and that causes you to lose the use of the power (plus lose the mark on the unengaged target) does that end the mark on the engaged target as well? If not, would it mean that the still-marked target does not take damage if it attacks another target?

2. There are several powers / items that extend your mark for a turn, even if it would "normally end". Does this override powers the target might use that would end a mark? If one of these abilities extends the mark on an unengaged target, do you still lose the use of Divine Challenge on your next turn, and (again) how does that effect the radiant damage? If you use one of these powers on an already-Challenged target can I then use Divine Challenge on a new target without ending the Challenge on the first target?

3. The wording "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." - does that mean that if you challenge a different target you don't need to engage that turn? Or would you still need to engage the new target or loose the mark and use of the power in the next turn? How does this effect the first round of combat?

4. Just to clarify - Am I correct in assuming that if you use Divine Sanction to mark the target of your Divine Challenge you over-write the Challenge in it's entirety and therefore would not be penalized for not engaging the target?

I may be being a bit picky on some of those questions, but I don't usually play a defender, and I want to know the rules for the class as best as I can. Any answers (or links to the same) are most appreciated...

 

[FireLance]

There is quite a bit of debate on the issue, but my take on your questions is as follows:

1. If you use Divine Challenge on multiple targets do you need to engage all of them, or lose the use of the power on your next turn? If you engage one target but not another and that causes you to lose the use of the power (plus lose the mark on the unengaged target) does that end the mark on the engaged target as well? If not, would it mean that the still-marked target does not take damage if it attacks another target?

This one is quite tricky. My group has played with the option of allowing the divine challenge to continue on all targets as long as the paladin engages at least one of them, but the DM eventually concluded that it was too good. For simpicity when running the game, it may be better to run it as if the paladin had two separate divine challenge abilities which he can activate with the same minor action. If he fails to engage one of the targets (say with divine challenge 1), his other divine challenge (number 2) continues to function as normal, and the target of this challenge would take damage if it makes an attack that does not include the paladin. On his next turn, the paladin cannot use divine challenge 1 because he failed to engage the target, but he can still use divine challenge 2.

2. There are several powers / items that extend your mark for a turn, even if it would "normally end". Does this override powers the target might use that would end a mark? If one of these abilities extends the mark on an unengaged target, do you still lose the use of Divine Challenge on your next turn, and (again) how does that effect the radiant damage? If you use one of these powers on an already-Challenged target can I then use Divine Challenge on a new target without ending the Challenge on the first target?

Although it could arguably be interpreted more generously, I personally would interpret "normally end" to mean "end because you failed to engage the target" in the case of divine challenge and "end because the duration is reached" for Divine Sanction. It would not be effective against: powers that end marks, the mark being overwritten by another mark, or a divine challenge ending because the paladin used it on another target. In the case where the duration of a divine challenge is extended, I would treat it as if the paladin had engaged the target: the mark continues for another round, the target takes damage if it makes an attack that does not include the paladin, etc.

3. The wording "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target." - does that mean that if you challenge a different target you don't need to engage that turn? Or would you still need to engage the new target or loose the mark and use of the power in the next turn? How does this effect the first round of combat?

This is another debated topic, and I tend to agree with the interpretation that you have to engage a new target by the end of your turn. Hence, you will need to either challenge the target, then attack it or end your turn next to it, or (if you have already attacked and moved) challenge a target that you have attacked or are adjacent to. This would also apply in the first round of combat. What the paladin in my party likes to do when he starts out some distance from the enemy is to move his speed (move action), challenge a target (minor action) and then charge it or use a ranged attack against it (attacking it). If the enemy is too far away for this to work, he simply doesn't challenge anyone.

4. Just to clarify - Am I correct in assuming that if you use Divine Sanction to mark the target of your Divine Challenge you over-write the Challenge in it's entirety and therefore would not be penalized for not engaging the target?

This would seem to be the case, just as you would not be penalized if a fighter's mark overwrote your divine challenge.

 

[kaomera]

I just got the search function working again (I just updated Firefox and for some reason it seemed to have screwed a number of things up), and oh boy I notice the debate... I guess I'm best off asking the DM.

A lot of this seems like it shouldn't normally be an issue with careful timing of applying the Challenge... Except that would eat up my Minor action each turn. Aside from playing a Dwarf there are a number of cool things you can do with a Minor, I'm going to have to figure out how to manage that. I suppose with access to Divine Sanction I don't have to worry so much if I lose access to Divine Challenge for a turn, or I guess it's actually two turns, huh?

My own thoughts:

1. I think you would have to engage both targets or lose access to DC on the next turn, but the Challenge should "stick" on any target you do engage. Obviously the best choice (if you have a Minor available) would be to Challenge the target you are going to engage, thereby dropping the mark on the other target.

I think it's probably best to look at "Divine Challenge" as the mark and the ability that applies it, while the radiant damage is almost a separate (but linked) "ability"...

I think that abilities like Bradaman’s Weapon are a potential trap for that reason as well as that it makes it impossible to use Divine Challenge if there are not two targets within the area.

2. Only extending the Challenge past failure to engage makes sense. I think the wording on the radiant damage is pretty clear that it applies only on the first turn you apply the Challenge. I don't know about the intent, but in the absence of an update I don't think I want to press the issue. Like I said, I think part of the issue is that you're probably supposed to be re-applying the Challenge each turn...

3. I think the "or challenge a different target" wording is probably superfluous. Unless you manage to find yourself in a situation where you can't Challenge and engage any target you should be able to maintain the mark on someone... Getting Dazed is going to suck...

4. And this is my best idea on how to get out of losing access to the Divine Challenge for two turns... Actually this may work in reverse as well, if some of what I'm reading is correct. I was assuming that in order to maintain the Challenge by attacking you'd have to make the attack after applying the Challenge, but if that's not the case then I would be free to overwrite a Sanction (from an attack) with a Challenge (which could have better effects), and have it stick...

 

[eamon]

You're generically referring to a bunch of cases. I think it's important to look at the specifics, since they matter.

However, there is one general thing to keep in mind that often causes confusion specifically with regards to Divine Challenge: each usage of a power must be interpreted fully independently of other usages. Just as when you use two melee attacks, the effects of the one have no relation to the effects of the other - barring explicitly mentioned details.

So, for instance, when divine challenge says you must "engage or challenge a different target", then for that instance of DC, you indeed no longer need to engage when you DC again. However, the new DC has the same clause; and thus to satisfy the new DC you must again either engage (possible) or DC another target (generally impossible since normally only one DC use per round is allowed).

The only relation between two instances of DC is thus that (A) the first ends when you use the second, and (B) when you use the second, the penalizing clause of the first is negated. That's it - the second usage is notably unaffected.

Keep that in mind when looking at other exceptions; many are easily resolved if you cut away the vague notion of "the challenge" sort of meaning the power and all it's usages and replace it with the more accurate notion of each individual usage.

If you have a specific case you'd like to look at in more detail, feel free to post it here!

 

[Joshua Randall]

Agree with eamon.

Also, typically you will have only one target challenged at a time (unless you run around with a Bradaman's Weapon or something). You may also have one or more targets under divine sanction, but sanction does not have the "engagement" clause, so no worries there.