Paladin.. monk?

[silentspace]

I think games should reflect reality. That's my big problem with chess /sarcasm

 

[silentspace]

By the way, the player's actions sound somewhat offensive to me. Granted, some accents, like "Asian" (whatever that means), Irish and Scottish seem to be culturally acceptable (relatively speaking, at least), but still, it seems to be treading a fine line between all-in-good-fun and offensive. But that might be just me.

 

[fusangite]

Sorry I misinterpreted you LP. Sounds like we're on exactly the same page.

 

[Arkhandus]

Google pankration (or maybe it was pankratian). I don't remember the appropriate link, but a few times people have posted a link to a martial arts site that describes the history and such of the ancient Greek unarmed fighting discipline called pankration, which apparently might have been used in the original Olympics as a competition. I don't remember if it was proven or not, but there are modern practicioners of pankration.

The term Monk is entirely a Western name, anyway. It has nothing to do with unarmed combat or anything, it was probably only associated with such after bad translations of Japanese texts about Shaolin monks, who were akin to their Western equivalents except trained in martial arts. Assume some deity like Hercules, or a titan like Prometheus, empowers mortals who train like the Monk class dictates. And yeah, call them pugilists or something. Or luchadores. :^D

Though obviously that one disruptive player just didn't seem to pay attention, but some people are just stubborn and like to be disruptive.

 

[silentspace]

The Monk class as written definitely embraces the Eastern concept of unarmed combat, both in the flavor text, and the abilities themselves.

I don't think the Monk class reflects the Eastern concept of martial arts either. Even in the wildest martial arts movies, the characters never pass up an opportunity to grab a weapon. And if there aren't weapons around, they'll often grab anything that's available. Of course having a weapon is better than not having one!

The Monk class is really odd on a lot of levels. Really it seems more like a prestige class than a base class. But its not the only one. If the Monk class seems like it should be restricted to characters of specific backgrounds, then the Barbarian class does as well. And all the fluff surrounding the Wizard class also suggests that they must have a specific education and training. But you can start as a monk, take a level of wizard, then (after your alignment changes) take a level of barbarian!

 

[fusangite]

Google pankration (or maybe it was pankratian). I don't remember the appropriate link, but a few times people have posted a link to a martial arts site that describes the history and such of the ancient Greek unarmed fighting discipline called pankration, which apparently might have been used in the original Olympics as a competition. I don't remember if it was proven or not, but there are modern practicioners of pankration.

Are we having the same conversation? Every single poster on this thread agrees that it was an Olympic sport and an important recreational passtime in the Hellenistic world. Nobody is disputing this historical fact.

But does this mean there should be D&D classes based on discus throwing, marathon running, etc.? Of course not! I mean WOTC will stoop to anything in creating as prestige class but I have yet find "Discus Thrower" as a PrC.

The term Monk is entirely a Western name, anyway. It has nothing to do with unarmed combat or anything, it was probably only associated with such after bad translations of Japanese texts about Shaolin monks, who were akin to their Western equivalents except trained in martial arts.

And your point is...? People translate words every day. You just did it yourself. Why are you using the term "Shaolin monk"? Because you don't know an Asian word for monk. Which is fine. Neither do I. If calling these individuals "monks" is a "bad translation" then why are you doing so? I think "monk" is a perfectly adequate translation. Just as "cleric" is a perfectly adequate translation for the Chinese word for priest. Or "fighter" is a perfectly adequate translation for the Chinese word for "warrior."

Assume some deity like Hercules, or a titan like Prometheus, empowers mortals who train like the Monk class dictates. And yeah, call them pugilists or something. Or luchadores. :^D

Again, I ask: why is it important to locate the archetype for this class within Western tradition? Why do we have to claim this archetype is transcultural? Can't we just admire this Asian archetype for what it is and employ it when appropriate? We know what warriors who saw Hercules and Prometheus as patrons were like. They were, unsurprisingly, totally unlike Shaolin monks.

 

[Krieg]

Some people just cannot get the idea of a non-oriental monk, too many Bruce Lee movies.

To be fair the PHB doesn't in any way help them in this regard. The description and names for powers of the class do nothing to help dissuade folks from the stereotype.

 

[Tonguez]

We know what warriors who saw Hercules and Prometheus as patrons were like. They were, unsurprisingly, totally unlike Shaolin monks.

The fact remains though that Hercules the wrestler (and the Biblical Samson) do provide archetypes for Unarmed fighters in a Western setting which is all that matters in the end.

Agreed the monk class doesn't really recreate Hercules but thats not the point and don't forget monks do use weapons

 

[Ace]

Are we having the same conversation? Every single poster on this thread agrees that it was an Olympic sport and an important recreational passtime in the Hellenistic world. Nobody is disputing this historical fact.

But does this mean there should be D&D classes based on discus throwing, marathon running, etc.? Of course not! I mean WOTC will stoop to anything in creating as prestige class but I have yet find "Discus Thrower" as a PrC. SNIP.

I am in agreement with you that the D&D monk isn't really a European archetype however there are bits and pieces of esotericism that would let you create a Euro flavored monk without messing up the worlds flavor

. That Tibetean King Fu site above has some with its Pnuema -- you could also use Vrill from the 19th century or just treat monks as Physical Adept type sorcerers

And as for Discus Thrower and Marathon runner PRC's well there are feats like Run and Endurance and a Orcish Shotput could stand in for Discuss -- a 5 level PRC would be easy to make

Already done there is something like an Olympian Athelete PRC here

http://p096.ezboard.com/fcommunity3efrm16.showMessage?topicID=76.topic

and here

http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=56826

there is an athelete core class in X Crawl and and Athelete background in D20 Modern --

Its a viable archetype and As it happens we may be playing a pseudo greek game later this year so I read up I may play an athelete turned tomb raider in fact

Twisting the monk just a bit -- especially renaming it something like the Pankrase Master (or whatever) will fix 99% of the assumption issues with the class

I have seen this work in play without and problems. In fact we had a Puritan Warrior Nun in a Pyrate game I played in without incident, we just ignored a bit of baggage and assumed it was some wierd ascetic religious thing and moved on

Monks work fine in any campaign that is designed for flexibility

Some games are not -- if that is the case just set up the available classes and PRC's first and while Merlins Fist "monks" could be cool you many not want that in your Arthurian D20 game -- use what you like and have fun

 

[Krieg]

The fact remains though that Hercules the wrestler (and the Biblical Samson) do provide archetypes for Unarmed fighters in a Western setting which is all that matters in the end.

Agreed the monk class doesn't really recreate Hercules but thats not the point and don't forget monks do use weapons

According to Geoffrey of Monmouth the Corineus the first chief of Cornwall (and a famed wrestler) fought Gogmagog (the last giant in Cornwall) unarmed & threw him over a cliff into the sea.

Irish texts from the 700-1100s mentioned unarmed combats between champions immediately before armed battles.

At least one of the Eddas mentions snatching arrows from the air bare handed (and catching spears is quite common in Celtic mythology.

Jacob wrestled an angel.

When Odysseus finally returned to his home in Ithaka he fought Iros bare handed.