Paladin moral delima

[orion90000]

I'd like to pose a concern to you for feedback:

If a paladin was captured, striped of his gear, and imprisoned, would he lose his paladin status if he escaped, recovered his gear, and got out of the enemy camp as quietly as possible?

I know it sounds dim and I'm not leaning on this, being a special circumstance and all. But if he had the opportunity to challenge his oppressor in a Lawful Evil society for his possessions and right of passage but chose to be sneaky instead would there be any divine punishment for cowardice or would that be stupidity instead?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Stumblewyk]

Maybe I'm odd in my interpretation of paladins, but I don't think there's anything forcing the paladin to be an idiot and walk up to his captor and demand his stuff back.

The paladin in question can't live to fight evil and injustice if he dies escaping. There's nothing wrong with him sneaking out, getting his stuff, and coming back with help to win the day.

Also, I'd consider altering your word choice in between "sounds" and "and" in your third paragraph. Doesn't offend me, but will certainly (and justifiably) offend others, I'm sure.

 

[mmadsen]

I believe the time-honored response is this:

A paladin is Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid.​

 

[orion90000]

I appreciate the quick responses. Pretty much how I felt, but didn't want a divine catch 22.

And as far as my wording in paragraph 3: I don't negotiate with Politically Correct Terrorists =)

Mod Note: You'd prefer to make it non-negotiable, then? Fine, have it your way. ~Umbran

 

[Halivar]

When my LG paladin is in a LE society, he is more likely to appear more chaotic than he really is. Then again, my paladins aren't very "in Rome, do as the Romans do" sort of guys.

 

[Celebrim]

I'd like to pose a concern to you for feedback:

If a paladin was captured, striped of his gear, and imprisoned, would he lose his paladin status if he escaped, recovered his gear, and got out of the enemy camp as quietly as possible?

I'm not even really understanding the question.

I'll guess, "....No?"

Seriously, I'm not seeing the moral conflict here. I can imagine some things that might cause moral conflict in this case, but you haven't mentioned them.

1) Did the Paladin beg for mercy? Did the Paladin's foe extend parole to the Paladin? Did the Paladin in any way pledge not to escape?

2) Is the Paladin abandoning an innocent to their fate by fleeing? For example, is there another captive whose safety depends on the Paladin not escaping? Is the Paladin abandoning a comrade in arms who has also been captured?

I'm not seeing any sign that the Paladin fleeing amounts to cowardice. Not fleeing when the oppurtunity presented itself might amount to cowardice. Asking an enemy that the Paladin believed was without honor for mercy, or extending his word to an enemy that the Paladin believed to be honorless might be cowardly. Collaborating with the enemy could be very dishonorable. But escaping from a stockade after having been captured by the enemy doesn't strike me as the gutless thing to do.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Same response here as the others. Unless the paladin is a complete dunce, he'll try to get his stuff back, gain some experience on how not to get captured again and then come back another day when the odds are more even and when he stands a chance at honorable combat with his previous captors.

Unless there are other circumstances preventing him from sneaking off with his life and gear intact (i.e. an innocent has been taken prisoner as a result of his actions) he would try to get away and come back another day to deal with the problem. I've never played my paladins as lawful stupid, maybe a bit clueless, maybe a bit reckless, but never suicidal.

 

[Dausuul]

*grating electronic voice* Alert! Paladin alignment thread detected! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminaaaaaate...

Anyway.

In general, no, it's not against the code at all. In the specific case where the paladin has the option to challenge the oppressor to a duel, and the paladin knows about it, and he has reason to believe the duel is fair or at least winnable, then I would say it is a small violation of the code to choose the sneaky path... unless there are other circumstances that make it necessary. I wouldn't impose any mechanical penalties on the paladin, just have his god give him some kind of a heads-up: "Dude, not cool." Maybe he finds out later that he missed some kind of opportunity he would have received if he'd fought honorably.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

*grating electronic voice* Alert! Paladin alignment thread detected! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminaaaaaate...

Anyway.

In general, no, it's not against the code at all. In the specific case where the paladin has the option to challenge the oppressor to a duel, and the paladin knows about it, and he has reason to believe the duel is fair or at least winnable, then I would say it is a small violation of the code to choose the sneaky path... unless there are other circumstances that make it necessary. I wouldn't impose any mechanical penalties on the paladin, just have his god give him some kind of a heads-up: "Dude, not cool." Maybe he finds out later that he missed some kind of opportunity he would have received if he'd fought honorably.

I think it's more of a code of conduct or code of honor rather than alignment type of discussion here. In any case it shouldn't be "against the paladin's alignment" which in turn plays to his theological beliefs and the beliefs of his god on the subject, I'm sure his god wants him to live anyhow so that he can spread the faith and fight for the innocent/oppressed as most LG paladins usually do.

So, I still say no penalties to the paladin for sneaking off to save his hide, he'll do more good if he's alive and kicking.

 

[Dausuul]

I think it's more of a code of conduct or code of honor rather than alignment type of discussion here. In any case it shouldn't be "against the paladin's alignment" which in turn plays to his theological beliefs and the beliefs of his god on the subject, I'm sure his god wants him to live anyhow so that he can spread the faith and fight for the innocent/oppressed as most LG paladins usually do.

Oh, agreed on the alignment issue. It is certainly not evil to sneak out. I don't think I'd consider it chaotic either, although that's always a tricky question since the Law/Chaos axis is so ill-defined... and in any case, the paladin is allowed to perform an occasional chaotic action, as long as his overall alignment stays lawful. It's evil actions that get the zero-tolerance policy.

I do think the paladin code calls for the paladin to fight in a situation where he can challenge his oppressor with honor, in a fair duel. I mean, we're not talking about a suicidal fight against a hundred enemies. We're talking about going mano-a-mano with the villain. That's what paladins do.

However, it's a very small violation, like Gawain keeping the protective belt in "Gawain and the Green Knight." It's the sort of thing that earns you a small cut on the back of the neck, not a severed head.