Paladin of Helm - Help?

[Rechan]

Maybe that's the problem right there. It's not about what you want.

You start a thread on a topic but it's not about what you started the topic for? I was specifying what I am looking for in this thread.

What reason are you giving them to flesh out the church?

Them? I'm asking ENWorld, not the players. I think "Making this interesting" is a good enough reason to do it. Especially because I want it to have a presence in the game.

Be creative with what needs protecting and it won't be bland.

And this is why I come to ENWorld. I'm not feeling creative about it, hence why I am hoping people here can help out.

 

[Rechan]

Thanks for all the other suggestions. I did want to respond to one thing.

Are there wandering protectors in the service of Helm, or are all protectors specifically charged with missions from the church? (If there are wandering protectors, could the PC be one--most of the time? It would probably simplify things--and would also free him up to interpret his own role on a case-by-case basis.)

Wandering is very kosher and what I am intending.

Understand where I am coming from this: I am volunteering to run this game at the local teen center (for resume building, and providing young gamers an outlet). These kids have only played D&D a few times before from someone doing the same thing I'm doing. I'm approaching the game as very relaxed in terms of what they do, but certainly have consequences for their actions.

Basically, remember back when you were a kid playing D&D with other kids, and how crazy and carefree it was. I want to facilitate that kind of atmosphere and experience. Perhaps I'm making the mistake of thinking too hard about it.

The only rule I've firmly set up front is "No attacking other PCs."

I don't think this player is really deeply invested and Helm matters all that much. I even said "hey come up with your own deity". He just sort of shrugged. So to him I don't think it's all that important, but I want to try and inspire.

 

[Rune]

Thanks for all the other suggestions. I did want to respond to one thing.

Wandering is very kosher and what I am intending.

That simplifies things. He can occasionally pick up a mission when he visits a church, but mostly will be on his own to figure out what Helm wants him to do. If he doesn't care to explore any more in depth than that, that's okay. If he chooses to explore that facet of his character more, the ball's in his court.

Understand where I am coming from this: I am volunteering to run this game at the local teen center (for resume building, and providing young gamers an outlet).

Good on you for that.

These kids have only played D&D a few times before from someone doing the same thing I'm doing. I'm approaching the game as very relaxed in terms of what they do, but certainly have consequences for their actions.

That's good, because I think you're going to need to keep that in mind.

Basically, remember back when you were a kid playing D&D with other kids, and how crazy and carefree it was. I want to facilitate that kind of atmosphere and experience. Perhaps I'm making the mistake of thinking too hard about it.

The only rule I've firmly set up front is "No attacking other PCs."

I certainly do remember. I remember the NEUTRAL GOOD ranger ('cause they were all good, back then) doing something vilely EVIL to the women of a tribe of Troglodytes. I still don't want to talk about it (and Eric's Grandmother certainly wouldn't approve!).

My point is this: You might want to set up another boundary up front. Since this is a teen center, whatever behavioral rules that the center has would be a good place to start. Kids, if left to their own devices, are going to search for boundaries and push against them. The kid playing the evil character has already demonstrated that the boundary he will be pushing is a moral one. If there is no moral boundary in the game (as "no attacking other PCs" is a [wise] practical boundary), that player is likely to keep going and going.

Furthermore, this amounts to an indirect form of attacking the other PCs, as it forces those PCs to face the direct consequences of his actions (when there are some--the player may become adept at making sure no one in-game finds out) and otherwise forces them to play a tone of game they may not wish to play. (I certainly didn't--even as a kid.)

I don't think this player is really deeply invested and Helm matters all that much. I even said "hey come up with your own deity". He just sort of shrugged. So to him I don't think it's all that important, but I want to try and inspire.

Your interest is important and valid, too. Bored DMs run boring games, after all!

 

[wingsandsword]

Here's an angle you can go with. . .

Helm is probably the single most hated, reviled good-aligned deity in the Forgotten Realms. Clerics of most neutral deities and maybe some of the more amiable evil deities are probably more socially accepted in Faerun.

During the Time of Troubles, Helm was the only deity to not be stripped of his divinity, as Ao tasked him with guarding the portal back to the Outer Planes.

Mystra tried to return to her realm so she could preserve The Weave of magic, knowing that her presence on Toril meant she was vulnerable, and with it all magic. When she tried to return, Helm attacked and killed her.

That's how Mystra died during the Time of Troubles, slain by Helm. Wild magic and dead magic zones in the realm (pre-Spellplague) came from Helm's actions. Those that died from the magical chaos of the time have only Helm to blame.

In FR games I've run, Clerics and Paladins of Helm are typically shunned, snubbed, or even spat upon by Wizards, Sorcerers, or the clergy of Azuth, Mystra, and Savras (who have had to spend years after the Godswar fixing the damage to the weave that Helm inflicted).

I had a PC Cleric of Mystra challenge a Paladin of Helm to an honor duel to the death once over Helm's actions during the Time of Troubles. The duel ended when after a few rounds the NPC Paladin surrendered when he failed a save against a Hold Person spell, to which the Cleric said "I'm not Lawful, I don't have to accept surrenders" and Coup-de-Grace'd the Paladin. Stretching it just a little in Alignment for a NG character, but given the extreme religious animosity Mystrans have for Helmets, wasn't anywhere near enough for an alignment shift or loss of spellcasting.

Try being a Paladin, trying to be a "good guy", when you're hated and scorned for your faith even among other good-aligned religions. There is a lot of roleplaying opportunities, there and a lot for a Paladin to try to do to "prove himself" to a community that might have suffered great losses, like the town is now largely in a Wild Magic zone, so if the town Cleric tries to cast Cure Light Wounds on somebody it might turn into a Fireball and burn half the town down.

 

[Rechan]

That's interesting [MENTION=14159]wingsandsword[/MENTION] - I just pulled Helm out of my old memories because it seemed more in line with the Player's defensive mindset. I wasn't using FR, but I can easily twist that bit of FR lore because I'm not using any particular setting. The game is very bare bones as is.

Also you have a point [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] and I'm going to keep a wary eye on the rogue player. If he does keep pushing, I'll have to have a word with him. If nothing else, I can offer to do some '1-on-1' side-sessions to let him get his aggression and/or do thieving jobs.

Here's a question: Helm's portfolio includes watchmen and about the letter of the law, as [MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION] said, the ultimate Cop. But would this also include things like Sanctuary/safe houses? A criminal fleeing to a Helmite place to seek asylum from (say, other criminals, etc)?

 

[jedavis]

Misread thread title; now I want to make Helm of Paladinhood a magic item. I guess the old Helm of Alignment Change might work as a baseline...

Not terribly familiar with Helm, and not sure how closely you're holding to FR lore, but the sense I'm getting from upthread is that they're in some sense similar to the Crab of L5R - the mountain does not move, that kind of thing. Which leads me to suggest that perhaps you should give them something of great importance that they, as an order, are responsible for protecting, much like the Crab protect the Kaiu Wall and keep the Shadowlands beasties out of the lands of man. The Night's Watch from ASoIaF might also work as inspiration, or (for a darker, but also less geographically-oriented version) the Inquisition of 40k. If you provide the church with a single, over-arching goal, suddenly determining things that the church needs becomes much more interesting (We need men for the wall, or food. Or we lost a party over the wall, but one of them was really important; see if you can find him. Or one of the Seven Seals has been stolen, and much be retrieved, lest a terrible evil awaken. Or a noble needs escorted somewhere, and it is your duty to protect him on the road). Give the church something worth protecting; the stability of the realm, or all mankind, or the material plane, or the entire cosmos. Start with the macro, and the micro will follow.

As for the rogue... It's all about incentives. If you want to encourage them to let surrenderers live, provide both a penalty for killing someone who surrenders (curse in dying breath, or his brother is a powerful enemy who comes after the particular offending PC, or the legal system in general) and benefits for letting people live. I once ran a Traveller game where the PCs fought some bounty hunters. When they won, the bounty hunter medic surrendered. Most of the PCs were in favor of spacing him, but one of them managed to sneak him off the ship. The medic later re-appeared and provided some advance warning and underground cybernetics for the PC who had saved his life. Maybe the guy who surrendered is worth more in ransom money; ransoming was common practice for knights in the medieval period (though not applicable in the thug situation). Maybe he knows the location of buried treasure, but if the PCs kill him, the knowledge dies with him. *shrug*

You could generalize that to a systemic solution; bad behavior begets penalties, while good behavior gets perks. If incentives don't work, then talk to him out of game. If that doesn't work... well, then you're in a tough spot. I disagree with the "kill them all" solution proposed above; killing just the rogue should be sufficient. While killing everyone for the rogue's failings is a strong way to incentivize players to police themselves, it might also kill the game, and I don't think that's within mission parameters. TPKs just aren't productive.

 

[Loonook]

That's interesting [MENTION=14159]wingsandsword[/MENTION] - I just pulled Helm out of my old memories because it seemed more in line with the Player's defensive mindset. I wasn't using FR, but I can easily twist that bit of FR lore because I'm not using any particular setting. The game is very bare bones as is.

Also you have a point [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] and I'm going to keep a wary eye on the rogue player. If he does keep pushing, I'll have to have a word with him. If nothing else, I can offer to do some '1-on-1' side-sessions to let him get his aggression and/or do thieving jobs.

Here's a question: Helm's portfolio includes watchmen and about the letter of the law, as [MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION] said, the ultimate Cop. But would this also include things like Sanctuary/safe houses? A criminal fleeing to a Helmite place to seek asylum from (say, other criminals, etc)?

If they offer to be 'forgiven' and enter into His service. Takes a thief to catch a thief and could allow for your rogue to get outbsome of his transgressions.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[GSHamster]

I think you'll get the best results if you play it straight. Don't worry about twists.

Helm is the god of protectors, so give the paladin things to protect. The weak, the powerless. Bandits, cruel lords, monsters. Go traditional for the most part.

Eventually, a good twist will present itself. But you need to lay the groundwork for it by playing it straight first.

 

[Squire James]

A note about Helm. He isn't Good-aligned at all... he is Lawful Neutral. Guarding a Nazi death camp? Just doing my job, ma'am!

I guess you could take the player literally, and have him worship Whatever, the Lawful Neutral god of indifference!