Paladin Question

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with you. In Kieperr's world, Evil will always win, because good is dumb.

The Pale Master also has Tomb-Tainted Soul, Arcane Disciple: Destruction, Necromantic Presence, and Necromantic Might, and more!

Also, BoED is not only ridiculous in its assertions, its also unbalanced, giving out ridiculous benefits for rp restrictions, etc. Paladins, if done in 4th Ed, need to lose the code of conduct completely. They arent better than a fighter in the first place.

Most of the benefits aren't ridiculous, and the RP restrictions are significant enough to make up for them. I have rarely seen an Exalted characters that made the other characters wish they were also Exalted in the long run

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with you. In Kieperr's world, Evil will always win, because good is dumb.

Actually, Evil will probably still lose. It will just be defeated by the hordes of 'Neutral' selfless champions of the innocent. People will still play the heroes that are needed to save the world from evil, the GM will just shift them all to non-Good alignments since they kill evil things.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds.".

Dang man. If my DM followed that line of thought, I'd ask where the line to sign up for Lawful Neutral starts.

Good doesn't have to be stupid--apparently unless it reads the book of exalted deeds.

 

[Twowolves]

So as you can see, in his game, my reign of terror may go on, unchallenged, for millenia.

Until, of course, you are tried in absentia and sentenced to death....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Until, of course, you are tried in absentia and sentenced to death....

I think that in Kieperr's game, that trial wouldn't mean anything. In fact, in Kieperr's game, if the evil character pleas for mercy and then the LN guards take him away for an execution, the Good character would have to break him free to show him mercy

 

[Twowolves]

In this case, the enemy was a hobgoblin. An evil creature intelligent enough to be dangerous, strong, brutal, cruel, and a hated enemy. It can see in the dark, so if it was captured, the group would have to constantly watch it. It is likely as strong as any warrior in the group, so even unarmed, it would be a threat to say, the mage or possibly the rogue (ie, the weaker group members). It could signal to nearby allies watching them, or escpe and inform others about the group, providing exact numbers, strengths, weaknesses, and all sorts of other information it could gather. And at night, it could help any nearby allies ambush the group or sneak in by signals, expressions, etc, that the group would be none the wiser about, disable the watch and kill the rest of the PCs in their sleep. Not to mention, it could resist them, slowing them down by forcing the PCs to drag it along as dead weight. It could argue, bark, yell and otherwise distract, or shout for reinforcements, help, etc.

Unless, of course, you tie it up and gag it.

 

[Kieperr]

I'm saying that not all good characters will be punished if the aren't as good as the possibly can be.
…
However, you do have to be an Exalted character to be held to the highest standards of Good. If you are not Exalted, then you do not have to live up to those impossibly high standards at all times, or even most times.

But paladins are held to the highest standards of Good at all times and are punished if they aren’t as good as they possibly can be.
PHB pg 44:
“Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.”

As a player who generally picks LE, I'd LOVE to be let loose in the world of this BoED Exalted alignment. As a wizard(necromancer)/Pale Master, I could cry foul, pout a bit and surrender, and teleport without error 5 minutes later every single time I am found.

Ever heard of Dimensional Shackles (DMG pg 255)? My paladin accepts the surrender of such creatures and such creatures were lawfully tried for their crimes. Not all were found guilty (the law works that way sometimes), but those that were suffered the punishment dictated by the law. For most that was a long drop on a short rope. Lawful Good does not mean stupid. In my world, you may try this escape once. You wouldn't a second time. And I could do it without violating my code of conduct.

In real life the line between good and evil can be very hard to differentiate at times. In DnD it shouldn’t be that hard. If it is then you may be allowing to much real life into your game. Everyone seems to be complaining that the alignments are not well defined and that is what leads to player/DM misunderstandings, such as the one that started this thread. Well, now you have a book that defines Good for you. The BoED is written to help players understand how the good alignment works within the game, Chapter 1. The book is for all good characters, not just exalted characters. The exalted rules, which are only part of the book, simply allow a good character to expand his capabilities in the same manner the Complete series of books allow the various classes to expand on their capabilities. I guess that means you can look at the BoED as the “Complete Good” book and the BoVD as the “Complete Evil” book. If you want to use them, do so. If not, then don't. They are tools to help you. If you don't want the help, so be it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But paladins are held to the highest standards of Good at all times and are punished if they aren’t as good as they possibly can be.
PHB pg 44:
“Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.”

Note that there is a difference between "You cannot commit an evil act", and "You cannot commit an act less good than the most good option available to you".

Let's say the paladin sits down in a restaurant. The menu offers a steak meal, and a turkey meal, both for 5 silver pieces. There's a note saying that 1 sp from every turkey meal is donated to a fund for widows and orphans.

Ordering the turkey is a 'more-good' act than ordering the steak... the steak does nothing for the widows and orphans. So in ordering the steak, the paladin is not being 'as good as he possibly can be'. But it's not an evil act, and he's not punished for it.

Even if he orders the turkey... the widows and orphans are getting one silver piece of the five he's spending. He could buy half a loaf of stale bread from the baker for a handful of copper, and give four silver pieces directly to the charity. So ordering the turkey, while 'more-good' than ordering the steak, is not being 'as good as he possibly can be'. But again, it's not an evil act, and he's not punished for it.

The paladin can elect to leave a good act undone, as long as he does not commit an evil one.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But paladins are held to the highest standards of Good at all times and are punished if they aren’t as good as they possibly can be.
PHB pg 44:
“Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.”

Your brain doesn't work the same way that mine does. I cannot see how you could take the quote you cited and arrive at the statement you made.

I'm going to bow out at this point, and thank God that I have a talented DM who sees things more in line with the way I do.

Good gaming.

 

[shilsen]

Note that there is a difference between "You cannot commit an evil act", and "You cannot commit an act less good than the most good option available to you".

...

The paladin can elect to leave a good act undone, as long as he does not commit an evil one.

Damn - you made all the smart things I was about to say completely redundant! Okay, fine - what Hyp said.