Paladin/Ur-Priest/Bone Knight

[Corwin of Amber]

I have recently been killed in a campaign in which I played a necromancer-cleric. I have decided to roll a new character that is similar, but more to my liking. My character design is as follows:

Paladin of Tyrrany (LE) 2/Human Paragon 3/Ur Priest 2/Bone Knight 10

I don't think this is too overpowered with since I get 9th level spells at level 17 and I don't get domain powers, but my combat abilities are better than a straight cleric.

I have a few questions regarding streamlining the build.
1.) I don't get the ability to rebuke undead until level 2 of Ur-Priest, but paladins can eventually get the ability to rebuke undead. Do my paladin levels still stack with Ur-Priest? (This is not a big deal since I plan on using DMM anyway.)

2.) What happens at level 10 of Bone Knight when I don't have any more levels of Ur-Priest to increase and cannot cast divine spells through my paladin class?

3.) Related to the second question; Is there a way to get rebuke undead before level 2 of Ur-Priest? I need the 3 levels of Human Paragon in order to get high enough will saves and paladin doesn't get +3 to will until level 9.

4.) Does anyone have any recommendations for the last 3-4 levels of my build? And is it worth it taking those last 2 levels of Bone Knight rather than one more level of Ur-Priest in order to finish out the spellcasting progression?

 

[irdeggman]

The class levels for turn/rebuke undead don't stack. (There is nothing in the rules that say they do for multiple classes, unlike familiars and animal companions).

So you get multiple sets of turn attempts - each one using a different class level as the basis.

In your case currently you have no attempts in either class yet.

 

[Persiflage]

The class levels for turn/rebuke undead don't stack. (There is nothing in the rules that say they do for multiple classes, unlike familiars and animal companions).

Not so, or "not quite so" at any rate.

In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3.

Now... strictly speaking I don't think this applies to Corwin's situation as the rules are explicitly referring to turning, rather than rebuking, undead. They also explicitly refer to "Cleric" and "Paladin" rather than "Ur-Priest" and "variant Paladin of Tyranny" so it wouldn't be unreasonable to disallow them stacking by RAW. On the other hand, when that rule was written there were no classes other than Cleric and Paladin that could turn undead, and no classes other than Cleric that could rebuke. So, given that a standard Cleric and standard Paladin do stack, I think it'd be a bit harsh not to allow turning and rebuking to stack in other classes which grant the ability. Not RAW, just an opinion.

In the case of Bone Knight, well:

If you already had the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you add your previous effective cleric level to your bone knight level to determine your effective cleric level for rebuking undead now.

Paladin of Tyranny gives you an "effective cleric level" for rebuking undead, so it indisputably stacks with the prestige class. Ur Priest likewise gives you an effective cleric level and would thus stack. The only question is whether or not Paladin and Ur Priest stack... and - in my view - it'd be a bit much not to allow it, even though a RAW interpretation could reasonably say not.

That said, you don't really want Paladin levels to stack for rebuking in this build because you only have two of them, which means that your effective cleric level for rebuking would be -1! Of course, you could stack your Bone Knight levels onto Paladin rather than Ur Priest for the purpose of determining effective cleric level for rebuking, but to what end?

Paladin of Tyrrany (LE) 2/Human Paragon 3/Ur Priest 2/Bone Knight 10 would work out like this if you "stack" Paladin in this instance:

-1 effective cleric from PoT, +2 from UrP, +10 from BK added to UrP = effective Cleric level of 11 for rebuking.

It doesn't make any difference whether you add the BK levels to PoT or UrP; you end up with a rebuking level of 11. You're actually better off not counting the Paladin of Tyranny: excluding it nets you an effective rebuking level of 12

So, that's question 1) answered.

Question 2) Nobody knows. Seriously. It's pretty much the same argument as whether Legacy Champion can extend a 10-level prestige class beyond 10th level. My gut reaction would be to say that the rules on 10-level PrC's apply, and that you can't extend the class until you're a footnote in the Epic Level Jokebook... I could link to plenty of conversations that agree with this standpoint overall but it would be intellectually dishonest as I could probably also link to conversations where the consensus was otherwise if I cared to search for them.

Ask your DM and hope

[As an aside, this made me laugh: I swear I hadn't read it before writing my answer to this question]

Question 3) Only by dipping another class. I assume you've got solid reasons for not starting Cleric, and that's the only way I can think of to get rebuking so early in the build.

Question 4) You definitely want to finish the spellcasting progression. As to what to do with the rest, you've got a lot of solid options. Personally, I'd consider mixing a couple of levels of Master of Shrouds in there (if you can spare the feats) for extra undead-mastering lulz. On the other hand, despite the free Extra Rebuking and advancement of rebuke undead (and spellcasting), they're more about summoning undead than commanding battalions of them.

Maybe if you could give a few more specifics about your character's "flavour"? What's the main thing you want them to be doing?

 

[Corwin of Amber]

Thank you for the very thorough answers Persiflage.

Nobody knows. Seriously. It's pretty much the same argument as whether Legacy Champion can extend a 10-level prestige class beyond 10th level. My gut reaction would be to say that the rules on 10-level PrC's apply, and that you can't extend the class until you're a footnote in the Epic Level Jokebook... I could link to plenty of conversations that agree with this standpoint overall but it would be intellectually dishonest as I could probably also link to conversations where the consensus was otherwise if I cared to search for them.

I just wanted to see if there was a way to get more high-level spell slots. Although, it seems that Ur-Priest does not prevent gaining a divine class after you have taken it. Although this sort of goes against its flavor so I'll probobly leave it alone.

Only by dipping another class. I assume you've got solid reasons for not starting Cleric, and that's the only way I can think of to get rebuking so early in the build.

I'm only skipping cleric because my character is a fallen paladin that took on the mantle of spellcasting to spite his god. Ur-Priest fit the theme better than Cleric, plus this allows my character to be more martially inclined.

You definitely want to finish the spellcasting progression.

Either option lets me finish casting progression, it's just that it will allow me to either get more Bone Knight class abilities or Ur-Priest class abilities. I know the old adage, "thou shall not sacrifice caster levels."

As for a description of the character, I am a Paladin that began to dabble in necromancy as an alternative to healing magic. I believed that raising a dead ally was even more tactically useful than healing a wounded one that might be afraid of further injury. I do not believe myself evil, although the world around me does. My alignment is LE bucause I remember the dicipline of faith, but do not see anythin wrong with morally evil acts to foreward an honorable goal. After being cast out for my beliefs, I continued my necromantic study and was eventually initiated into the ranks of the Ur-Priests. The Bone Knight levels are a tribute to my matial past.

An alternative I had considered was Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin (Tyrany) 3/ Bone Knight 10/X 2. I would really like to work Bone Knight into the build as it basically sums up my character quite well.

Once again, thank you for your input.

 

[Persiflage]

Either option lets me finish casting progression, it's just that it will allow me to either get more Bone Knight class abilities or Ur-Priest class abilities.

Ah, I see. Well personally I'd be more inclined to finish off Bone Knight. Divine-spell-only spell resistance is nice, but situational. Siphon Spell Power is like a poor-man's Versatile Spellcaster that you can only use once a day (I'd rather dip a spontaneous class and then use the real feat) and Steal Spell-Like Ability makes me yawn. Once-per-day abilities have to be really special or really abusable to be worthwhile.

At high levels you can do cheesy things with it, like planar binding or gating in something powerful that can summon other powerful stuff, stealing the spell-like ability and using it whilst getting them to use it as well, but... meh. In actual combat you'll pretty much always have better things to be doing with your time.

But the Bone Knight stuff? That matters. Immunity to pretty-much-freakin'-everything and finally free heavy fortification? Bring it on. If you're going to be heading into melee at the head of your trusty undead troops, the last few levels of Bone Knight are absolutely something you care about.

I'd consider dipping ToB for your final couple of levels, given that your spell progression will be maxed already. You'll be able to pick up some amazing stuff; White Raven in particular has some great all-your-allies boosts which could mesh very well with the whole angsty-evil-but-noble-undead-commander schtick

 

[Corwin of Amber]

Wow, I must have missed the once per day clause on Siphon Spell Power. I thought it was unlimited use. That was the one thing that gave me pause. Nw what are your thoughts on Prestige Paladin/Cleric vs Paladin/Ur-Priest? Both will net me the approximate spells per day of a level 17-ish cleric and both fit into my character's backstory (he is cast out as a novice so he's less than level 1 while this happens, so starting with cleric or paladin doesn't make a difference). I'm thinking of going with the cleric option to avoid the awkwardness of trying to make an 11th level of Ur-Priest.

 

[Persiflage]

Honestly? It's hard for me to comment in an unbiased way because I think Ur-Priests are weird. Mechanical considerations aside, the flavour of the class makes no sense to me. Even handwaving the fact that they somehow wrest divine power straight out of the gods' pockets without the gods consenting to same, they're still just bizarre. So they steal power from deities... and this apparently makes them evil. Possibly even Evil. Certainly they have to have Spell Focus (Evil), which is not only a pointless waste of everybody's time but confusing as hell.

There are at least as many Evil gods as there are Good ones. Surely stealing power from an Evil god is a good thing, no? The whole point about most D&D pantheons is that they're a zero-sum game, alignment-wise. At worst, Ur-Priests are Neutral and should have to take Spell Focus (Fence Sitting) or some such. And if you want to take the class - assuming your DM is playing the "Special" considerations for PrC entry, which many don't - you have to be trained by an Ur-Priest.

What the hell is up with that? An entire prestige class full of people who are "abominations" to clerics of any alignment, described as "canny and cunning" and they train people? How? WHY? Surely the more people who are stealing power from the gods, the more likely it is that the gods are going to notice: and then they're going to be upset.

Where's their paranoia? They'd have some, surely: if clerics know enough about Ur-Priests to think of them as abominations, then the divine-power-burgling community have got to be pretty damn careful about revealing their presence. They are, after all, up against a very large number of people whose raison d'être is to spend their days communing with omniscient supernatural beings Who Hate Ur-Priests.

You think that'd give Clerics the edge, and Ur-Priests the social inclinations of a crocodile with toothache and the life-expectancy of a glass tennis racquet.

If I were an Ur-Priest - you know, just for the Evulz - and I heard some gloomy bugger in a pub sounding off about how he hated the gods and would do anything to strike back at them, I wouldn't walk up and offer him an apprenticeship. I'd assume he was some sort of god-bothering sympathiser of the oppresive deistic theocracy looking to flush right-thinking, independent folk such as myself out from cover. At the very least I'd wait until I'd seen him murder a few clerics from both ends of the alignment spectrum before offering him any tips on the best way to walk off with godly mojo. More likely, I'd see him safely digesting in the bellies of my ghoulish minions before the stupid sod drew any attention to me.

Ur-Priests. Bah.

Oh, er... sorry. That wasn't exactly what you were looking for, was it? Very well: I say just go with the Cleric/Prestige Evil Paladin/Bone Knight route. That way you don't have to take any stupid feats, don't have to take a bunch of skills you Just Don't Care about and won't be in danger of disappearing in a puff of logic the first time you cast commune.

 

[krupintupple]

...the flavour of the class makes no sense to me. Even handwaving the fact that they somehow wrest divine power straight out of the gods' pockets without the gods consenting to same, they're still just bizarre. So they steal power from deities... and this apparently makes them evil. Possibly even Evil. Certainly they have to have Spell Focus (Evil), which is not only a pointless waste of everybody's time but confusing as hell.

personally, i've taken a dislike to them thematically, but not as hilariously as you've found them

in my campaigns, i've just said that they're manipulating the mostly-unused deific power of fallen, dead or former deities. basically, the deity-stuff that was so potent and powerful that it simply cannot leave the cosmos; think about a glass water that embodies water so greatly as a philosophical concept that even after you've drank it, it's still there. yeah, not so great, but i figure that dead deities won't mind their power being borrowed for the time being.

we also swapped out "Spell Focus: Evil" for "nothing" because the class doesn't really have any real reason as to why an Ur-Priest HAS to be evil. i mean, all things considered, if you played a campaign where the PCs were goodly-heroes on a planet that was overrun with demons and their undead minions centuries ago, wouldn't an Ur-Priest who stole demonic energy to power the spells he used to battle other demons and heal his allies and bring justice to the land...kinda be a good guy?

ie: it's 1943 and you've just escaped enemy lines. you see a gun and steal it and get into a minor fire-fight. now, just because you use a stolen Nazi SS machine-gun to shoot other Nazi SS men, does not necessarily make you a bad guy.

 

[Corwin of Amber]

I believe the Ur-Priest class actually mentions the possibility of worshipping a dead god in the description text.

As for the fact that the order is hard to find, I assumed I would run off of the fact that I had been publicly scorned by my god and clergy to give them possible incentive to find me. If they're as spiteful as the text makes them seem, they would want to propigate their order with the outcasts of divine magic.

On to the issue with them being evil. A good person cast aside by what he thought was right might turn evil in an attempt to seek vengeance; Evil people rarely become good to seek vengeance on their allies. Just as a point of reference, among Celestials there is an amount of camaraderie, whereas the is infighting among demons/devils. This sets a precedence for Good vs. Evil and Evil vs. Evil, so a class that would oppose both Good and Evil is mroe likely to be Evil, itself. Additionally, this type of evil may be similar to my character's described type of evil: usany any means, no matter how much it would harm others, to achieve a goal that you see as right (stealing power from the gods is wrong, but possible using that power for a lawful end).

One last note about the mechanics, I need to take Mounted combat to get into Prestige Paladin or Spell Focus (Evil) to get into Ur-Priest, so either way it's going to require a marginally useful feat.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

A good person cast aside by what he thought was right might turn evil in an attempt to seek vengeance; Evil people rarely become good to seek vengeance on their allies. Just as a point of reference, among Celestials there is an amount of camaraderie, whereas the is infighting among demons/devils. This sets a precedence for Good vs. Evil and Evil vs. Evil, so a class that would oppose both Good and Evil is mroe likely to be Evil, itself.

You're assuming vengeance as a motivation. Equally as common is the old "fight fire with fire" trope where a hero uses evil methods/powers/etc. to fight evil. Just as a Malconvoker can summon fiends to kill fiends, a good ur-priest could vow to only steal power from evil gods and use it to fight evil.