Paladin vs Fighter/Cleric (Previously: Is Turn Undead useful for a Paladin?)

[reapersaurus]

Which strangely makes it more attractive to gain 2 fighter levels first (or multiclass in FR).

Actually, from a mechanic point of view, I think it's way too attractive to just go fighter/cleric instead of Paladin (if your character idea is to kick ass in combat).

A Paladin only gets a few offensive capabilities - Turn Undead, Smite, Special Mount and spells.

We've already discussed Turn Undead, and how weak it is.
Smite is way too weak. One attack a day (2 thru 9th level) just doesn't cut it. (Plus, if you use Relics & Rituals, the Smite spell marginalizes the Paladin's)
Special Mount is problematic, and dependant on being high level for great use.
Spells a cleric gets WAY better.

The main problem with the paladin, I'm realizing, is that the abilities above 3rd are underpowered.
Weak Turn Undead, paltry spells (at 1/2 caster level), a few HP/level of curing (Lay on Hands), 1/5th of an extra Smite and a special mount just don't cut it for me anymore.

I (and others, from the recent Paladin thread) want a more powerful paladin class.

Either that, or the paladin should get a VIABLE PrC that addresses the main abilities and increases a Paladin's effective power level. Up thru now, no WotC PrC has done so.

*plink plink*

 

[Artoomis]

...Either that, or the paladin should get a VIABLE PrC that addresses the main abilities and increases a Paladin's effective power level. Up thru now, no WotC PrC has done so.

*plink plink*

I agree.

Possibilities:

Give up advancing spellcasting and get extra mount "stuff."

Give up mount and get exra combat "stuff."

Give up mount and get extra magic "stuuf" - spells? Maybe a broader spell list, or a change in spell-casting level.

The thing I see as absolutely missing is a prestige class that retains all paladin abilities except spell=-casting and improves the mount instead. Lots of interesting possibilites there. Things like a "free" special mount, and/or new mounted tricks for offense and/or defense to help the mount survive. Possibly a few "free" unique feats to choose from.

 

[reapersaurus]

Here's another possibility:
Follow the template of many PrC's, and just grant the Paladin extra power.

Use some bogus "requirement", like Ride (8 ranks) and/or Knowledge: Religion (8 ranks) and Mounted Combat feat, and then grant him +1 level in paladin class progression and then some other nifty things, like +2 to damage vs evil/chaotic creatures, a Deadly Charge ability X times per day, and a free Holy weapon ability, or something.

Why not? It works for other classes....

 

[Voadam]

Re: Re: Re: Is Turn Undead useful for a Paladin?

"Smitten".

"Smote" is also acceptable, but uncommon usage as a passive.

-Hyp.

Huh, you are correct. I only ever used smitten in the "inspired by love" sense of the word so I assumed past tense of striking smite was different, but you are correct according to my dictionary.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Turn Undead useful for a Paladin?

Huh, you are correct. I only ever used smitten in the "inspired by love" sense of the word so I assumed past tense of striking smite was different, but you are correct according to my dictionary.

I thik the worst attempt I ever heard was "smut"

-Hyp.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO, the problem doesn't lie with the paladin, it lies with the Turning mechanic itself. It's an "all or nothing" mechanic that has the potential to turn an encounter into a non-encounter as undead flee, or do nothing at all. Paladins get their turning ability late, which means the Amulet/Phylactry of Undead Turning is really necessary for them to have the chance for an effect.

Turning is one of the few things that 3.5 didn't change that I wish they had. It's a hold-over from previous editions, resolving in a way totally different from any other mechanic in the game. If it resolved as damage, with a saving throw, or inflicting status effects, it would probably be better. But as it is, it's not the paladin's fault. IMHO.

I fully agree. If it were replaced by a spell I'd be even happier, especially if it dished out boat-loads of damage.

Counting up HD is just annoying IMO.

 

[Azul]

a few HP/level of curing (Lay on Hands)

Actually, Lay on Hands is far more devastating against strong undead than Turning Undead is, especially if you Smite Evil while Laying on Hands.

Lay on Hands rapidly snowballs into a once/day undead obliterating ability since it can be used as a touch attack against undead (using the positive energy to damage the undead). Unlike spellcasting, this does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the paladin has a great Cha (pretty common) then lay on hands turns into a very nice ability.

So, say a 10th level paladin with a 20 Cha (not especially unlikely if he has an Cha boosting item or an Eagle's Splendor spell on him)... that's 50 hp of lay on hands per day. Use that as a touch attack, Smite evil while at it (for a +5 attack bonus and a +10 damage bonus). That's a 60 damage touch attack at +5 attack (virtually a guarenteed hit for any paladin versus any undead within a reasonable CR range)... and it's positive energy damage, which pretty much bypasses DR and energy resistance. Given that undead have no Con bonuses (and thus has lousy hp), that will go a long way towards wiping out any big undead baddie (like a lich, vampire or such).

In my previous undead-themed campaign, the party paladin used to use lay on hands offensively fairly often. He'd open with turning to scatter the undead mooks and then lay on hands against the big baddie.

 

[Darklone]

Naah, not again. Paladin weaker than a ftr/clr?

Never. I've seen several paladins rule the day even without Divine Might (not allowed there) and all those cleric comparisons (I don't talk with groups that allow those silly Rituals&Relics spells like Smite and Rage!) usually consider a cleric with Persistent Spell or someone who had 5 rounds time to buff up.

 

[Bozidar]

My wizard found that the "Undeath to Death" spell was the best way to turn undead.....into piles of corpses, rather than piles of moving corpses

My paladin's primary stat is his strength, then charisma. CHA is big for paladins, but it's not the primary req. I disagree that it's the one you should be bosting above all else..

 

[Darklone]

My wizard found that the "Undeath to Death" spell was the best way to turn undead.....into piles of corpses, rather than piles of moving corpses

My paladin's primary stat is his strength, then charisma. CHA is big for paladins, but it's not the primary req. I disagree that it's the one you should be bosting above all else..

Many of the guys who complained in other threads had strength paladins... I see that these may be a bit weak. The Cha-boosted paladin especially with Divine Might though proved to be more effective IME.