Paladin vs Fighter/Cleric (Previously: Is Turn Undead useful for a Paladin?)

[Stalker0]

Many of the guys who complained in other threads had strength paladins... I see that these may be a bit weak. The Cha-boosted paladin especially with Divine Might though proved to be more effective IME.

One thing to add is that 5 ranks in knowledge religion gets you +2 on turning checks. Every little bit helps.

 

[reapersaurus]

Naah, not again. Paladin weaker than a ftr/clr?

Look, just because you couldn't admit defeat in your battle against the tide where we proved you wrong in your continued assumption that a paladin is stronger than a cleric/ftr doesn't mean that you need to trot out your personal delusion again.

 

[Darklone]

Look, just because you couldn't admit defeat in your battle against the tide where we proved you wrong in your continued assumption that a paladin is stronger than a cleric/ftr doesn't mean that you need to trot out your personal delusion again.

Yihaa, here we go again!

There's nothing like a good old gauntlet into the face to make me wake up!

Don't think just because you abused a silly thing such as Persistent Spell, always considered 20 rounds of buff and preparation and considered two different ftr/clr builts (each superior in ONE area) that you beat me (and others).

The paladins mount may ride you into the ground and trample on your [ZENSORED], puny excuse for a paladin (ftr/clr)!

 

[reapersaurus]

ahhh, so you finally admit you need the addition of a CR X creature (the paladin's mount) to make it an even fight?

If you give the cleric/ftr an equal CR creature, I guarantee a ftr/clr win.

 

[Hypersmurf]

ahhh, so you finally admit you need the addition of a CR X creature (the paladin's mount) to make it an even fight?

If you give the cleric/ftr an equal CR creature, I guarantee a ftr/clr win.

The Paladin's mount is a class feature of the Paladin, and is included in the Paladin's CR... just like summoned creatures.

If you want to remove the mount from the equation, the Ftr/Clr can give up one of his class features in return... oh, say, spellcasting?

-Hyp.

 

[reapersaurus]

the base mount is NOT a class feature, the way I see it.

the enhancements to the mount are.

give the ftr/clr a creature equal to the base creature - that is an equal fight.
Of course, even being able to use the mount (landscape-wise) is a huge advantage to the paladin.

The corollary is that NOT having the landscape/conditions that support a paladin's mount is favoring the ftr/clr...

 

[Hypersmurf]

the base mount is NOT a class feature, the way I see it.

How do you justify that?

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the paladin.

Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see below). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

------

It looks like "the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed" is the Class Feature to me; not "the unusual intelligence, strength, and loyalty" of a steed he happens to acquire by some other means.

-Hyp.

 

[reapersaurus]

How do you justify that?

You quoted the relevant passage right there....
"An unusually intelligent," etc steed.

I'm sorry, I view that as being over and above a normal mount.
The class feature is the specialness of the mount - to make things equal/fair in a fight, you'd have to give any opponent the choice of a mundane mount.

The paladin's mount should be able to kick all over a normal mount.
The extra kick the bonded mount gets is a test of classes, not the fact that he gets a mount.
Anyone can get a mount.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You quoted the relevant passage right there....
"An unusually intelligent," etc steed.

I'm sorry, I view that as being over and above a normal mount.
The class feature is the specialness of the mount - to make things equal/fair in a fight, you'd have to give any opponent the choice of a mundane mount.

The paladin's mount should be able to kick all over a normal mount.
The extra kick the bonded mount gets is a test of classes, not the fact that he gets a mount.
Anyone can get a mount.

I wouldn't have a problem with the Ftr/Clr getting a mount, as long as it came out of his Wealth by Level.

Of course, a normal mount avoids combat unless the rider is controlling it, while a Paladin's Mount can attack independently.

Especially useful if the Paladin has his mount grapple the cleric (with a size bonus) to prevent spellcasting.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Really, there are things that, while technically legal according to the game rules, ought not to be done. Horses initiating grapples is one of them. (Now if the mount were a dire wolf or dire lion or a griffon, it would be a different matter).

Especially useful if the Paladin has his mount grapple the cleric (with a size bonus) to prevent spellcasting.

-Hyp.