Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?

[Darklone]

Against a cleric who stays out of reach... I had more than one paladin relying on a real nice bow and his good BAB with some readied shots.

IME, the cleric will win with more preparation time, the paladin will win in surprise encounters or close quarter fights without preparation.

Anticipating 3.5rd edition,... we will prolly see less bull strengthed and enduranced fighting clerics with Persistent Spell as breakfast feat. A good thing IMHO.

 

[LokiDR]

I suspect that it only gets worse for the poor Paladin as the levels go up and the spellcasting becomes more powerful.

Perhaps, but the difference in attack will become more pronounced. What this does demonstrate is that the iconic paladin is better at combat than the iconic cleric. This makes sense given the concepts of the different classes.

You didn't let Jozan cast Bull's Strength and just go toe-to-toe with the Paladin. He's not going to win an even share of those combats, but if he can win even 25% then Alhandra's overall win percentage drops to 45%.

The funny thing is that they're pretty evenly matched in combat since Jozan can self-buff. But that wand totally swings the balance. What magic did Jozan spend his cash on, since he obviously didn't think of getting his own wand? :-/

-edit-

Thinking more about this, Jozan has a lot of healing power he's not using. 3 useless 3rd level spells, 2 x 2nd, and 2 x 1st. Thats 15d8 + about 30 points in caster bonuses. He can squeeze another couple d8 out if he gives up Bless etc. He's actually close to racing the wand.

Jozan casting Bull's Strength in combat means taking more damage and gaining 3 points of strenght. This increases his damage to 1d8+3 hitting 30%, 2.25 damage. That can't compete with Alhandra's 3.375. With bless, Jozan climbs to 2.975 per strike. In a slugfest, Jozan goes down first, and Doom doesn't work on Alhandra. Also working in Alhandra's favor are criticals (which I didn't figure in) and the attacks of the mount possibly with a flanking bonus to attack.

Jozan has 5 zeroth, 3 first, 1 second, 2 third level spells he can spontaniously cure with, plus an Aid spell. That is 12d8+38. +3d8+6 if he doesn't cast the searing light for damage. Alhandra has 50d8+50. Jozan, even buffed, can't take enough damage away to make up that difference.

Jozan's equipment: +1 full plate, +1 lg wood shield, +1 heavy mace, masterwork crossbow, 10 +1 bolts, cloak of resist +1, scrolls: daylight, invisiblity purge, lesser restoration, protection from elements, silence. Past that is basic gear (flint and steel, ect).

At a glance, Jozan wins at 10th level with lesser planar ally, flame strike, and healing. Alhandra has ride-by attack, but it doesn't look like that is enough.

 

[Gizzard]

This increases his damage to 1d8+3 hitting 30%, 2.25 damage. That can't compete with Alhandra's 3.375. With bless, Jozan climbs to 2.975 per strike. In a slugfest, Jozan goes down first...

If you do the calculations like that, then Jozan loses. But if you do probabilities like that every Heads coin is followed by a Tails coin. ;-)

Its more accurate to use a hypergeometric and say "Jozan hits for 1d8+3 30% of the time - how many rounds does it take for him to do 36 points" and look at the breakdown. The breakdown isn't a hard number; its a spread. There is some (small) chance that Jozan will finish the fight in two rounds with two max criticals. There is a greater chance that he will finish it in 3 rounds with two non-max criticals. And so on, off to the point where he never does 36 points because he keeps missing. ;-)

I could do some math, but I am already spending too much time of my workday thinking about the problem. In any case, the point is that there is a non-zero chance that Jozan will outfight the Paladin.

Off the top of my head, I don't know what that non-zero number is. Other than that wand, they actually arent that differently matched. And, like I said, if the Cleric can take 25% of the stand-up fights (which I don't think he can) then he goes from losing overall to winning overall.

-edit- clarified some probability stuff. hopefully.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Perhaps, but the difference in attack will become more pronounced. What this does demonstrate is that the iconic paladin is better at combat than the iconic cleric. This makes sense given the concepts of the different classes.

I will grant you that an iconic cleric that fights like a grunt will probably lose to an iconic character optimized for that style -- at least until we start seeing higher level spells. It is really quite a close match at levels 1-7. IMO the cleric's spellpower will overwhelm the paladin for levels 8+.

I think you are overestimating the value of the difference in BAB except at levels 6 & 7 where the cleric does not yet have an iterative attack. The cleric has so many ways of countering a modest AB difference it is not even worth listing them all.

To my mind, you are not quite fulfilling the spirit of the original posters query regarding two "well designed" characters. I think we can agree to disagree on that point though.

 

[Gizzard]

In any case, the point is that there is a non-zero chance that Jozan will outfight the Paladin.

OK, I couldn't bear not knowing, so I wrote a short program to let the 2 Iconics duke it out. ;-D

Their tactics aren't totally optimized; Jozan tries to cast Hold, then Aid, then Bulls Str, then he just starts hacking and backs off to cast Cures when necessary. The Paladin wades in and starts fighting; using her Cure Wand when necessary also.

After multiple runs of 10000 bouts, the Cleric generally is winning around 4500. Out of those, the expected 4000 are Hold-wins. So he's scooping up 5% by surprising people with multiple criticals etc.

Silly experiment: If I take away the Paladin's CLW wand, she wins just 850 bouts. This is sensible; the Cleric has virtually 15d8+40 more HPs than her due to his natural healing power. The implication of this is that there is some number of charges in the wand at which the combat is even. It looks like that number is around 30. ;-)

Note: I didn't include the Warhorse or the Lance; both of which are situational. Lets assume the combatants met in a 5 foot wide corridor. Looking at the Horse's stats though he is a monster. Outdoors, the Cleric is in a lot of trouble. I wonder what your Ride Check is if you've been Held. ;-)

 

[LokiDR]

If you do the calculations like that, then Jozan loses. But if you do probabilities like that every Heads coin is followed by a Tails coin. ;-)

Its more accurate to use a hypergeometric and say "Jozan hits for 1d8+3 30% of the time - how many rounds does it take for him to do 36 points" and look at the breakdown. The breakdown isn't a hard number; its a spread. There is some (small) chance that Jozan will finish the fight in two rounds with two max criticals. There is a greater chance that he will finish it in 3 rounds with two non-max criticals. And so on, off to the point where he never does 36 points because he keeps missing. ;-)

I could do some math, but I am already spending too much time of my workday thinking about the problem. In any case, the point is that there is a non-zero chance that Jozan will outfight the Paladin.

Off the top of my head, I don't know what that non-zero number is. Other than that wand, they actually arent that differently matched. And, like I said, if the Cleric can take 25% of the stand-up fights (which I don't think he can) then he goes from losing overall to winning overall.

-edit- clarified some probability stuff. hopefully.

I agree the math is imperfect, but I am not a researcher. I think the chances of that event fall outside the 5% that is a roll of a d20.

Example: the chance that Jozan will get a max crit is 5%*25%*12.5% or 0.15625%. The chance Jozan will do this twice is less than 0.0003. This non-zero value is not large enough for consideration.

I would need to figure Alhandra's criticals, and the attacks from the mount as well. Alhandra would come out ahead on that, with twice the crit range.

 

[LokiDR]

I will grant you that an iconic cleric that fights like a grunt will probably lose to an iconic character optimized for that style -- at least until we start seeing higher level spells. It is really quite a close match at levels 1-7. IMO the cleric's spellpower will overwhelm the paladin for levels 8+.

If you have other tatical options for the characters, please let me know. Jozan could have backed up and used his crossbow, but that would be even less damage. Grappling, likewise, goes to Alhandra, as well as disarming. Jozan could trip him, with a decent chance of success, but he would still lose to the mount and Alhandra just getting up.

My point is, clerics do not tend to optimize for combat because they MUST cover those elements of the game the other characters can not. Fighters can't cast lesser restoration.

I think you are overestimating the value of the difference in BAB except at levels 6 & 7 where the cleric does not yet have an iterative attack. The cleric has so many ways of countering a modest AB difference it is not even worth listing them all.

A cleric optimized for combat can be more effective than a fighter or perhaps a barbarian.

So?

The cleric has a different role to play in a party. If they do not ful-fill that role, they aren't playing an effective cleric. And the fact is that a paladin should be able to kick a cleric around if neither can use spells. If this wasn't true, there would never be a reason to play a paladin.

To my mind, you are not quite fulfilling the spirit of the original posters query regarding two "well designed" characters. I think we can agree to disagree on that point though.

I don't see any of iconics as poorly designed. They are not optimized for this specific fight, which justifies the test.

If we ask members of this board to make a paladin and a cleric, we would make far more powerful characters, I'm sure. If I asked some one who had never played D&D to make a cleric and a paladin, I'm sure they would be worse.

Both characters have relevant feats, equipment, and are not over-specialized. They are both well rounded characters that would work well in any number of campaigns. They could be optimized, alot, but that doesn't mean they are not "well designed".

If the query regarded two character made buy members of the boards, there is no question: Cleric. But the majority of the D&D world would make more effective paladins for combat than clerics. So I used the iconics, to remove our bias.

 

[Endur]

Buffed Paladin (no rhino hide version)

Buffed Paladin with GMW +3, Bulls Str, Eagle's Splendor
level 9 Paladin
Str 18, Chr 22, +3 Lance
(no pre-cast spells other than all day spells)


Feats: Power Attack, Divine Might, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge

To Hit: str +4, smite +6, lance +3, charge +2, mounted +1= +16

To Damage: 1d8 + str 4 + lance 3 + smite 9 + divine might 6 + Power Attack 9 = 1d8 +31

Triple damage = 3d8 + 93, approximately 107 points of damage

Then the Horse attacks the cleric

Average hit points for 9th level cleric (18 Con with endurance spell) = 48+ 36 = 84

So, if the lance hits, the cleric should be out of action.

This assumes the optimal lance build, which isn't necessarily what was built.

I think it's a close call at any level.

If we assume an evil cleric, then a properly equipped Paladin might be able to kill him with one lance charge at mid and higher levels.

Let's see:

Assume an 18 Cha and 14 Str, 9th level human paladin, +2 lance

Spells Cast: Divine Favor (+2 Atk and Dam); Righteous Fury (+ 4d4 temp hit pts, +2 AC, +2 STR and DEX, +2 Fort)

Rhino Hide (on the horse and rider, if you must - some combination should work without any arguments), Spirited Charge, Divine Might and Smite Evil. Pretty standard fare for a paladin.

Other items should probably be geared toward helping saves - especially Will save)

To hit: +9 (Pal), +4 (Smite), +2 (Str) +2 (lance) +2 (Divine Favor) + 1 (Righteous Fury Str Enhancement) +4 (Smite) = +24

Damage = d8 +2 (Lance) +2 (Str) +2 (Divine Favor) +1 (Righteous Fury) +9 (Smite) = d8 +16

Multiplier = x2 (charge) x2 (Spirited Charge) x2 (Rhino Hide) = x4

Damage total = 4d8 + 64, average = 82

Average hit points for cleric (12 Con) = 76 + 9 = 85

Whew - close - plus a Fort save or die from massive damage.

Who wins? A close call for sure. First intiative and clerical domain spells will go a long way toward deciding the outcome.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My point is, clerics do not tend to optimize for combat because they MUST cover those elements of the game the other characters can not. Fighters can't cast lesser restoration.

A cleric optimized for combat can be more effective than a fighter or perhaps a barbarian.

So?

The cleric has a different role to play in a party. If they do not ful-fill that role, they aren't playing an effective cleric.

If the cleric is fulfilling the barbarian's role better than the barbarian, then the cleric is certainly carrying his own weight. Who is to say that is wrong? Another PC? The DM?

I do not see why you insist that a cleric that pumps up for combat is incompetent at his tradtitional niche. Less effective, sure. But a hand full of scrolls and a wand or two can cover a lot of bases.

And the fact is that a paladin should be able to kick a cleric around if neither can use spells. If this wasn't true, there would never be a reason to play a paladin.

Some would say you have hit the nail on the head, though I think you state things a bit too strongly. I find the paladin has a lot of style and is an interesting roleplaying challenge. The class also can serve a useful role with respect to NPC interactions, e.g. the bard may seem friendly enough but does anyone trust him. From a strict powergaming POV I would never touch a paladin -- a clerics and cleric/fighters are vastly more effective in combat (if intended to be so).

 

[Gizzard]

I think the chances of that event fall outside the 5% that is a roll of a d20.

An odd coincidence then that it turned out to be just 5%. ;-)

Here's an example that I culled out of the program output. Only if something happens is it reported (except FAIL to Hold on the first case) so there is plenty of swinging and missing not detailed in here.

.Jozan FAILs > Alhandra HITs 11 > Jozan AIDs > Jozan STRs > Alhandra HITs 6 > Jozan CLWs 7 > Jozan HITs 9 > Alhandra HITs 11 > Jozan CLWs 10 > Alhandra HITs 4 > Jozan CLWs 9 > Jozan HITs 4 > Alhandra CLWs 3 > Jozan HITs 6 > Alhandra CLWs 3 > Alhandra CLWs 5 > Alhandra HITs 6 > Jozan HITs 5 > Alhandra CLWs 2 > Jozan HITs 10 > Alhandra CLWs 2 > Alhandra CLWs 5 > Jozan CRITs 13 > Alhandra CLWs 2 > Jozan HITs 10 > Alhandra CLWs 5 > Jozan HITs 10 > (!)


Anyway, looking at the output, Alhandra got down into the "danger zone" and started using the Wand to heal herself. She rolls crappy and Jozan rolls well, surprising her with 33 points of damage while she outputs only 7 points of healing. But 33 points in 3 rounds is not bad for a Cleric. ;-)