Paladin without a Code of Conduct

[Hadraniel]

sorry just a little rant while talking about a code of conduct. Seems like most people play the Paladin code of conduct the same way, stupid and very honarable. The comment about the druid city is a perfect example (not picking on anyone) but he may have but people lives in danger by saying who he was and what he was there for.

I can picture a paladin someone like Obi-wan. Clever, sneaky, and very honarable. Now I am not saying he is going to go stealing from evil people and such. But I could see a paladin not saying who he was at the gate in order to find out more informantion about the druids and the cause of the plague before saying who he was. Sometimes they should think what is worse lieing to some evil gate guards or putting the lives of fellow adventurers in danger.

 

[Jezrael]

In response to Good Paladin/Evil God above:

Our general rule of thumb is: two levels of alignment removed is OK. This does allow Lawful Evil (but not Neutral Evil, or Chaotic Evil) gods to be chosen, although a Paladin would have to be suicidal to choose this way...though it has worked in the past for the "I want to change the bad guys, the best way is from the inside" character concept, at least until the character "Fell from grace". The other problem is that the LE god probably a) won't accept any Paladins anyways making the argument a moot point b) will use every opportunity to corrupt him by giving him orders that contradict his "code" on some level.

While technically possible, in game considerations usually drop this right out.

 

[Crispy Critter]

The paladin the campaign I run is a paladin of Pelor. I have made it clear that he must stick to a moral code that adheres to the tenets of his chosen diety. As a DM thats all I really ask of my paladins.

He's also very lecherous character. He has used his charismatic personality to woo the hearts of a few maidens during the campaign. At first this bothered me, thinking a paladin wouldn't sleep around. Then I realized I was basing my concept of this on my own puritanical roots (born and raised in the U.S.).

 

[Zerovoid]

The paladin has always seemed like a pretty weak class to me. Its pretty balanced as written, but a fighter is almost always a more effective addition to the party if you already have a cleric. All those bonus feats are way better than the paladin's minor abilities. Now, this probably has something to do with the fact that all the campaigns I have played or run used either 25 or 28 pt buy. Having to put high scores in STR, CHA, and WIS instead of STR, DEX, and CON really hurts. I think a Paladin would be balanced with no code or alignment restrictions at all, but I would never do that, because I don't think it would be any fun.

 

[Zerovoid]

Re: Lawful Good

Well Paladins... Lawful good is relative. A dragon that is lawful good will eat you nonetheless if you disturb him without some proper presents, treasures, stories or whatever may interest him.

A paladin of Vecna might have his own interpretation of lawful good. At least about the lawful part.

This would make the dragon evil. Just because you are really powerful doesn't mean that you can push weaker sentient beings around without alignment repurcussions. A gold dragon has plenty of means at his disposal to get rid of unwanted visitors without killing them. He should treat all other beings with respect, and not attack them unless they have done something to deserve it. This is like saying a 20th level wizard can remain lawful good if he kills peasants whenever they come to visit him without bringing presents. This sort of "interpretation" of lawful good sounds an awful lot like lawful evil to me.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Sounds like Lawful Stupid to me.

A equally safe answer would have been:

"My name is Corean, I have come to your city because I am a traveller and seeker of knowledge."

Not a single lie in the above statement.

A neat little tidbit he just 'added' (actually he has played him this way since the beginning) is that he won't lie if asked a direct question.

Was a major hindrance when the party was trying to get into an evil druid city and the gate guards asked who he was and what his business in the city was. His response?

"I am a paladin of Corean and I am trying to find a cure for the plague that is coming from your city."

Whoops!!

 

[Zerovoid]

Sounds like Lawful Stupid to me.

A equally safe answer would have been:

"My name is Corean, I have come to your city because I am a traveller and seeker of knowledge."

Not a single lie in the above statement.

The paladin is still trying to be deceptive, which is basically the same thing as lying. I'm not sure if paladins should be able to lie or not, but if they can't lie, then the prohibition should mean something. It should mean they either have to give a clear and truthful answer, or remain silent. It shouldn't just mean that their statements can't be false if taken literally. The paladin came to the city to stop the poison, not because he's a seeker of knowledge, which he also might be.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Deception is not the same thing as lying. One can be deceptive by allowign others to draw conclusions without doing a single thing immoral. The real question was can he lie or not.

The question was not:

"Tell everyone immediatly exactly what he wants to hear in all the details that he might want even if he did not specifically as me to give to him."

It is Lawful Stupid in action pure and simple.

The paladin is still trying to be deceptive, which is basically the same thing as lying. I'm not sure if paladins should be able to lie or not, but if they can't lie, then the prohibition should mean something. It should mean they either have to give a clear and truthful answer, or remain silent. It shouldn't just mean that their statements can't be false if taken literally. The paladin came to the city to stop the poison, not because he's a seeker of knowledge, which he also might be.

 

[Quickbeam]

Back to the original question...

I've participated in many of the various threads/debates regarding paladins over the past year, and even started one called The Rogue Paladin. I created a paladin several months ago, that I wanted to play outside the traditional perceived goody-two-shoes mold we're all familiar with. I used the FR deity Lathander as his god, and gave him a detached personality of uninvolvement like Mad Mardigan from Willow or Han Solo. Then I sought feedback from my gamemates, DM and the members of this Board. While some folks suggested that I create a Justice Blade fighter or ranger instead of a paladin, most seemed supportive of my concept -- provided that this PC adhere to a specific code of conduct which did not fall outside the boundaries of LG.

So, in the hopes of avoiding the usual paladin holy war of what is righteous/moral/LG/decent/ defensible behavior, let me just say that the code of conduct is INDISPENSIBLE. I sat down and carefully crafted a code of conduct and moral imperatives my character was honor bound to defend, and the rationale behind them. The DM and I discussed what would be expected of this PC given his code, and the repurcussions of failing to meet our stated criteria. My advice to you and your group is to be as creative as you feel the rules warrant, but don't go begging for trouble. Without a stated code of conduct, every action the paladin makes will be subject to interpretation and debate. Don't go there, for your own sake.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

That is part of the problem. There is no interpretation going on at all. Basically the Paladin is being given free reign to be a fighter with a LG alignment. He hasnt even been required to chose a Diety of an sort.

Back to the original question...

So, in the hopes of avoiding the usual paladin holy war of what is righteous/moral/LG/decent/ defensible behavior, let me just say that the code of conduct is INDISPENSIBLE. I sat down and carefully crafted a code of conduct and moral imperatives my character was honor bound to defend, and the rationale behind them. The DM and I discussed what would be expected of this PC given his code, and the repurcussions of failing to meet our stated criteria. My advice to you and your group is to be as creative as you feel the rules warrant, but don't go begging for trouble. Without a stated code of conduct, every action the paladin makes will be subject to interpretation and debate. Don't go there, for your own sake.