Paladin without a Code of Conduct

[Quickbeam]

That is part of the problem. There is no interpretation going on at all. Basically the Paladin is being given free reign to be a fighter with a LG alignment. He hasnt even been required to chose a Diety of an sort.

My simple but harsh solution: no code, no paladin benefits. Period.
Make the character exactly what you've described -- a LG fighter. The code of conduct is vital to paladins, moreso than a god or religion even IMO. Our group discussed allowing a player to create a paladin with no deity, who adhered to a strict code of what we called "celestial goodness" and was thus granted his powers from extraplanar forces. But how the heck can you ever ascertain whether a paladin's actions are acceptable without a code of conduct?

 

[Tsyr]

IMC, paladins of one of the four Demon Dragons can be of any lawful alignment, although their alignment does dictate which dragon they can draw power from. Quite often (moreso when it comes to the non-good paladins, but it happens even amongst the good) the paladin's "code" is very loose... The demon-dragons themselves are something slightly less than sentient, acting almost entirely on a god-created instinct. And paladins who follow the dragons (as opposed to the new "gods") tend to be very... animalistic... in their ways. They almost always are fairly... errrm... passionate? about things. And yes, they do sometimes act before thinking things through. And you never, ever want to get on the bad side of one, even those who follow the good dragon (one good, two neutral, one evil... the good two neutral dragons will take followers of any lawful alignment, the other two only of their own). They have a very... base... responce to anger. As a matter of fact, all paladins are able to go into a near barbarian rage through a house rule of mine. .

What does this have to do with the orignal question?

Well, for all intents, the dragon paladins have no "code". They very much follow their own heart, and don't bother themselves with some silly "rules". And I havn't found it unbalanced... A paladin can still violate his ALIGNMENT quite easily... but it doesn't give the DM as many chances to... erm, forgive the expresion, but shaft the paladin. Not saying anyone here does that, but I know people like that, have gamed under them, and that's one of the principle reasons for the way paladins are in my campagin. I've always hated it when DMs throw things at paladins just to try to get them to screw up and loose their powers.

 

[Zenon]

Back to the original question...

I've participated in many of the various threads/debates regarding paladins over the past year, and even started one called The Rogue Paladin. I created a paladin several months ago, that I wanted to play outside the traditional perceived goody-two-shoes mold we're all familiar with. I used the FR deity Lathander as his god, and gave him a detached personality of uninvolvement like Mad Mardigan from Willow or Han Solo. Then I sought feedback from my gamemates, DM and the members of this Board. While some folks suggested that I create a Justice Blade fighter or ranger instead of a paladin, most seemed supportive of my concept -- provided that this PC adhere to a specific code of conduct which did not fall outside the boundaries of LG.

So, in the hopes of avoiding the usual paladin holy war of what is righteous/moral/LG/decent/ defensible behavior, let me just say that the code of conduct is INDISPENSIBLE. I sat down and carefully crafted a code of conduct and moral imperatives my character was honor bound to defend, and the rationale behind them. The DM and I discussed what would be expected of this PC given his code, and the repurcussions of failing to meet our stated criteria. My advice to you and your group is to be as creative as you feel the rules warrant, but don't go begging for trouble. Without a stated code of conduct, every action the paladin makes will be subject to interpretation and debate. Don't go there, for your own sake.

As another participant in the many paladin threads, I'll have to chime in here and say that Quickbeam in right on the money.

What is the first thing you think of that defines a paladin over a LG fighter? The Code. No matter what that Code may be, without it he is not a paladin and should get none of the benefits of being that class.

But to reinforce what Quickbeam said, feel free to make up you own Codes! Various organizations, deities, orders of knights, may all have wildly varying Codes, but still be paladins.

The best bet is to work with the player to find out what kind of paladin he sees himself/herself as, consider the deity that comes closest to their idea of conduct and write up a few paragraphs. You'll be glad you did, your player should be happy, and they'll still be a paladin in the game's eyes.

 

[Green Knight]

The paladin is still trying to be deceptive, which is basically the same thing as lying.

No, it's not the same. As long as what you say is the truth, you didn't violate the Paladin's Code. The Code says don't lie, it doesn't say "You must answer every question put to you, and throw in every possible detail that has a bearing on the question". So if I forget something and leave something out do I lose my Paladinhood? So do I have to tell my entire life story every time someone asks me a question just to be sure?

Think of Spock. Vulcans don't lie, but he was able to get around that with the way he phrased the things he said. ("A lie?" "An omission.") It doesn't matter if the other person draws conclusions which are far from the truth. All that matters is that the words that you utter are the truth. You shouldn't lose your Paladinhood because someone misunderstood you.

I agree, however, that setting down the Paladins' code at the outset is essential. The PHB gives you the bare bones (Must be LG, can't commit evil, respect legitimate authority, can't lie, can't cheat, can't use poison, help those who need help provided they don't use that help for evil or chaotic ends, and punish those that harm or threaten innocents), but it's best if you go into more detail than that. (For instance, define "Punish those that harm or threaten innocents". Does that mean you're judge, jury, and executioner?)

As for deitys, the Paladin doesn't need to worship a deity to get his powers. However, if he does worship one then he can't worship a LE deity, so Vecna's out. Only LG, LN, and NG are allowed. No more than one step removed from the LG alignment, yes. But you forgot that you can't worship someone who's alignment is OPPOSITE to yours. So no Chaotic, Evil, or True Neutral gods, with few exceptions. (And those exceptions are usually for CG and TN deitys. I have yet to see an evil deity allowed)

 

[Holy Bovine]

Sounds like Lawful Stupid to me.

A equally safe answer would have been:

"My name is Corean, I have come to your city because I am a traveller and seeker of knowledge."

Not a single lie in the above statement.

Except for that fact that his name's not Corean (that's his god's name )

To be fair the player said he didn't really think that every druid was an evil monster ( I have had misleading and contradictory information leak to the PCs so some are convinced that the druids are just being used & misled and others think they are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL).

He felt that the gate guards may have been impressed that a paladin of Corean came to help them with the plague (turns out the plague is taking a VERY different form within the city than elsewhere). The gate guards were scornful but they agreed to let him and his party in - they have, of course, alerted many others to the PCs arrival now so anything the PCs try to do in secret is most likely doomed to fail. The druid city does have contact to the outside world and has a small 'forgieners' market and bazaar - its just that the vast majority of the druids worship an evil, cannabalistic diety.

Overall the player has run one of the better paladins that i have seen - this is about as close to Lawful Stupid as he has ever got. That being said I do wish we had put down a little more concrete code for him - he has gotten along very well and plays his PC very consistantly - sad part is i may be losing the player to A2Z's group as he lives much closer to him than I do (currently he travels about 200km, one way, to game each Sunday - THAT's hardcore!)

Anyway don't think that I was upset or anything - it was a rather tense moment and some of the other players were convinced that they were done for - but it all came out good in the end.

 

[Raduin_Nimblegrund]

I also concur with Quickbeam.

Paladins should have a set code of conduct, discussed ahead of time between DM and player. It should be noted that no player should be expected to follow a higher code of conduct without it having been spelled out to him by the dm, no matter how "obvious" it seems to the DM.

Holy Bovine's paladin tale was a good example as well. No DM would expect that of a player, but if a player wants to play that sort of character, more power to him. I would also award extra xp for sticking his neck out like that.

It reminds me of a scene in a (rather gruesome) movie called the viking sagas. In it, the hero washes up on the Lawgiver's shore. The Lawgiver brings the hero back to health, but when the hero offers the Lawgiver his name, the Lawgiver refuses; should anyone ask for the hero by name, he would be obligated to tell them the truth. If he does not know the heroe's name, he could honestly say that he did not know who he was talking about.

A more specific list of paladin's virtues can provide drama and very interesting role playing situations, where a paladin must remain true to his Oath and still do the best good for everyone.

 

[Liquide]

Re: Re: Lawful Good

This would make the dragon evil. Just because you are really powerful doesn't mean that you can push weaker sentient beings around without alignment repurcussions. A gold dragon has plenty of means at his disposal to get rid of unwanted visitors without killing them. He should treat all other beings with respect, and not attack them unless they have done something to deserve it. This is like saying a 20th level wizard can remain lawful good if he kills peasants whenever they come to visit him without bringing presents. This sort of "interpretation" of lawful good sounds an awful lot like lawful evil to me.

I'm just going to do a little references race and size wise here !

Man gets annoyed by a fly and slaps the puny and annoying little bastard so it dies.

Dragon gets annoyed by small pesky creatures that sting him while he needs to take a little afternoon nap, small pesky creatures die!

So which one of the above statements show an evil act?

To me none, even if the dragon were LG and the small pesky creatures were humans, and don't tell me slapping flies is evil OK !

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hoo Boy

I should probably run screaming from this thread right now, but...I'm a glutton for punishment.

A direct quote from the PHB:

"Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most."

This gives a bit of a secular view of the Champion of Goodness and Order. A paladin isn't the servant of a deity -- they're a champion of the Cause. And the Cause is represented by their Code and their Alignment.

The Code is already spelled out in the PH...not in detail, but it's there.

IMHO, adhering to any Code of Conduct is a Lawful act...it's ordered, structured, etc. And the Code of Conduct of a paladin are fairly difficult, if not impossible, for anyone not good to adhere to. It's possible. But someone who is Evil will rail against the code every time they have to help those who need it and act with honor (which probably means not charging them for it, either). They may have trouble balancing their Good actions with their Evil when they cannot do any Evil. And they may find it hard to be indifferent to Good and Evil when they have to fight the latter every day.

So the Code makes paladins Lawful Good...though I'd buy a Lawful Neutral paladin who adhered to the code (though they'd have to be a *good* roleplayer to pull it off).

That said, I don't think that removing the Code will affect the balance of the Paladin very much. Alignments and Codes are role-playing guidelines, not mechanical limits...I'd gladly accept a setting that had neither requirement and more gray areas in what a paladin can be (basically fighter + divine spellcaster). But, as it stands, the Paladin basically is forced by their Code to be LG...they're very intertwined.

The Code is a way to guage how adherent to a LG alignment the paladin is being. Take it away or change it and you don't have that easy guideline any more. LG doesn't nessecarily mean honorable or fighting against evil or helping those in need...the Code does. Take away the Code, and you're taking away a lot of the Knight of Valiant Behavior flavor of the Paladin...nothing wrong with that, but it does affect the class flavor-wise quite a bit.

 

[Turlogh]

A paladin without a code of conduct and not LG is not a paladin. He's not even a fighter with leanings in that direction.

 

[The Oracle]

As for deitys, the Paladin doesn't need to worship a deity to get his powers. However, if he does worship one then he can't worship a LE deity, so Vecna's out. Only LG, LN, and NG are allowed. No more than one step removed from the LG alignment, yes. But you forgot that you can't worship someone who's alignment is OPPOSITE to yours. So no Chaotic, Evil, or True Neutral gods, with few exceptions. (And those exceptions are usually for CG and TN deitys. I have yet to see an evil deity allowed)

Nope. RTFM. You are talking about CLERICS. Paladin's don't have this restriction for some reason. They don't even have to have a diety. It doesn't say anything about restricted gods that can't be worshipped or being within one alignment. Those things apply to clerics only. I addressed this in my first post. There IS NO restriction on which god you worship as a paladin. I have seen paladin's of Wee Jas for instance.

Think about it, you are having a meeting of the Vecna Society, and you need a guy at the door to make sure everyone entering is evil. A Paladin is perfect! His code must "be in line with" lawfulness and goodness, whatever that is supposed to mean. That means if Vecna is displeased by any of his minions, the paladin is the executioner! He is killing evil.

Additionally, rival evil churches will be trying to horn in on the action, and some of them will be evil, and the paladin again can serve the cause of good by ridding the world of more evil! Actually, a paladin would do a lot of good inside an evil organization, he might even try to change some of their alignments, as a proslytizer. He won't go around killing babies and so on, but there is evil everywhere in the Church of Vecna, and how could you better keep an eye on it than by being there? Its sounds pretty interesting actually.