Paladin without a Code of Conduct

[sword-dancer]

Re: Ah, yes. The Paladin. [sarcasm] My favorite subject... [/sarcasm]

[BAllow the Paladin to be whatever flavor of Good he wants, but he must follow his Code to the letter or face the loss of his powers. This way, there are no gray areas and the player knows exactly what he should and shouldn't do. This will also save valuable game time by forestalling in-game arguments over comparitive morality and the nature of the LG alignment.

. [/B]

I would lean more follow the spirit of the code, not tthe letter

Think about it, you are having a meeting of the Vecna Society, and you need a guy at the door to make sure everyone entering is evil. A Paladin is perfect! His code must "be in line with" lawfulness and goodness, whatever that is supposed to mean. That means if Vecna is displeased by any of his minions, the paladin is the executioner! He is killing evil.

No this isn`t good, this isn`t even execution. it`s murder.
The champion didn`tt ffight for good he fight for evil

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Well if we go by the bare bones of the PHB then the Paladin has violated his code several times.


1. We encountered two ettins with an ogre audience who were engaging in a Kobold and Gnome tossing contest. Obviously the gnome or kobold died upon impact. The LG dwarf and LG Paladin both wanted to turn and run since they were 4th level and felt they had no chance to win. My Neutral mage burned some scrolls in a very imaginative manner and all of the gnomes and kobolds (evil though innocent victims here) were saved.

2. We were in a fight with a small green dragon. After killing it we were about to be attacked by its sibling while we were trapped and could not escape. The Paladin decided he was too weak to fight and without askign the cleric is he could be healed he used his ioun stone (keeps him from having to breath) to allow him to swim through some freezing water and mud for over 10 minutes to try and find us an escape route. A route of course that only he could take. While he was gone we fought and killed the baby dragon though just barely.

So he has run from saving innocents and abandoned his fellow party members so far. Both I think would be crisises with his code yet our DM hasnt done squat since the Paladin has no code at all.

 

[Gargoyle]

Nope. RTFM. You are talking about CLERICS. Paladin's don't have this restriction for some reason. They don't even have to have a diety. It doesn't say anything about restricted gods that can't be worshipped or being within one alignment. Those things apply to clerics only. I addressed this in my first post. There IS NO restriction on which god you worship as a paladin. I have seen paladin's of Wee Jas for instance.

Think about it, you are having a meeting of the Vecna Society, and you need a guy at the door to make sure everyone entering is evil. A Paladin is perfect! His code must "be in line with" lawfulness and goodness, whatever that is supposed to mean. That means if Vecna is displeased by any of his minions, the paladin is the executioner! He is killing evil.

Additionally, rival evil churches will be trying to horn in on the action, and some of them will be evil, and the paladin again can serve the cause of good by ridding the world of more evil! Actually, a paladin would do a lot of good inside an evil organization, he might even try to change some of their alignments, as a proslytizer. He won't go around killing babies and so on, but there is evil everywhere in the Church of Vecna, and how could you better keep an eye on it than by being there? Its sounds pretty interesting actually.

A piece of advice: Don't go telling people to RTFM. You'll inevitably make mistakes yourself because you didn't read the rules thoroughly enough either, and "RTFM" is a little harsh, don't you think? I do RTFM (every day in fact) and still manage to make mistakes. It's a complex game.

For instance, in addition to the Code of Conduct, you may have forgotten that paladins have restrictions about their Associates as well (page 43 of the PHB). They're not going to ally with evil to destroy evil because they're not allowed to, even if the end seems to justify the means. So I don't think your scenario with a paladin inside the church of Vecna is viable. A paladin would rather burn it down than "keep an eye on them".

If you want a paladin that can consort with evil when the end justifies the means for your campaign, that's certainly ok. But it's not allowed in the core rules and would be a variant.

 

[Codragon]

The code is all!

All Paladins MUST have a code, IMO and IMC.

Moreso, I personally think that a paladin's adherence to his code is more important than following his alignment. I know this isn't the case in the core rules, but I think it should be. A paladin should lose his powers if he violates his CODE, not his alignment.

In most cases, the two will coincide, since a paladin's code should follow the principles of Law and Good. Codes can vary greatly, just as Lawful Good folks can vary greatly. Someone made a huge post a while back on the old board with a ton of paladin virtues and codes. It was pretty good.

In core rules variants where alignment is less important or even not used(GASP!), the code becomes ALL the paladin is based on. Since I am of this camp, my opinion is sorta biased, so I'll stop now.

PS: Regarding the Vecna thing, I don't think it makes sense at all for a Good character to be involved in an Evil church, unless he was duped. I feel this is stating the obvious.

 

[Zerovoid]

I disagree that a paladin must only tell the literal truth. What is the point of that? There is always some way to twist your words to mean something other than intended. Maybe if the Paladin served a trickster god or something, this is what you'd want them to do, but I think that normally the spirit of the rules is more important than the literal truth. To me, "cannot lie" implies that they should be open and honest in all their dealings with others.

I wouldn't want a paladin to have "cannot lie" in my game. Sometimes lies can be a powerful tool against evil. I would be more likely to have them be honor bound to keep their sworn oaths or something. In either case, I think what is important with regards to such a vow is that they do not intentionally decieve, not that they do not lie. Telling the literal truth is just a way of trying to skirt the intended meaning of this vow.

 

[Oracular Vision]

A piece of advice: Don't go telling people to RTFM. You'll inevitably make mistakes yourself because you didn't read the rules thoroughly enough either, and "RTFM" is a little harsh, don't you think? I do RTFM (every day in fact) and still manage to make mistakes. It's a complex game.

For instance, in addition to the Code of Conduct, you may have forgotten that paladins have restrictions about their Associates as well (page 43 of the PHB). They're not going to ally with evil to destroy evil because they're not allowed to, even if the end seems to justify the means. So I don't think your scenario with a paladin inside the church of Vecna is viable. A paladin would rather burn it down than "keep an eye on them".

If you want a paladin that can consort with evil when the end justifies the means for your campaign, that's certainly ok. But it's not allowed in the core rules and would be a variant.

So, you were wrong and can't admit it? Tough cookies. Anyone can make mistakes, and you did. I always read the manual when questions come up, something you didn't do this time, so the comment is just. Are you saying that speaking without knowing is not your fault? Please.

The part about associates is true enough [not what we were talking about], but as long as you are following your code and are acting LG, you can still be a Paladin of Vecna. Associates is a vague term at best. Is an associate a member of your party? A guy who pays you? It could mean anything, I don't see it as very useful in figuring out exactly what is and isn't permitted. Can a paladin be in a party with an evil member? I know WotC doesn't want you to do that, but this seems to be a definite association, so I would say no. What if someone has a cursed item making them evil, and it's not their fault? That's more difficult. I'd have to say yes he could. A judgement call.

I don't think it is a good idea to be one, it would be hard if not impossible to play, but there is no reason you couldn't be one, unless you take a hard line on the limits of association, which would mean you couldn't work directly with any of them, a serious limitation but not a prohibition.

Admit you were wrong, it is good for the soul! Maybe Vecna will take you in.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

First off I have not read all of the posts written here. I have skimmed through most and found something that I think is relevant. Have all of you played Paladins? I am playing one now. My character was converted from 2e over to 3e. I don't think that to start a character needs to have a well defined "code of conduct". The lawful good alignment is pretty restrictive and is almost a code unto itself. Someone posted that they would follow the spirit of their "code" not the letter. Well then you would be in violation. Your alignment is Lawful. If those are restrictions that have been placed upon your character then you must follow. Most people also forget something (IMO very,very big). Paladins also have a little grey area. If you were to do something that was good and honorable but SLIGHTLY against alignment your dm should give you a warning (as outlined in the 2e paladins handbook) suspension of certain powers. I agree that any major violation should result in immediate lose of paladin hood. Slight violations should and are penalized but don't revoke your paladin hood.
The player and Dm must communicate between each other what is expected and what the characters concept is. With more and more prestige classes coming out maybe paladin is not the best choice for your character.

For my character I had a solid character concept to start. I did online research, reading about Paladins and knights. I also talked at length with another player in the group. I also created my own "code" from the different resources. I did it for character purposes not for my dm to use against me.

Paladins are hard to play. It's a fact. They can be very fun once you get into their skin. No one I know in real life is capable of being one, so it's fun to step out of my skin and play a character like this. The character that I'm now playing has become one of my all time favorites.

 

[Hadraniel]

about the lying thing. A paladin would not go around lying to everyone. But when set with circumstances where he has a choice to lie or put the lives of people in danger which do you think he would do? He has to protect innocent and be honest. I would guess they would go with saving people. They do not have to be these sneaky paladins, but they can be smart and have tactics besides charging straight into the enemy stronghold.

I have brought his name up once, but I see Obi-wan as a sort of Paladin. He was good and honorable. He seemed to follow a jedi code. He was also smart and sneaky when he had to be. It seems to me every paladin I have seen is lawful stupid, which is one step removed from lawful good

 

[Gargoyle]

So, you were wrong and can't admit it? Tough cookies. Anyone can make mistakes, and you did. I always read the manual when questions come up, something you didn't do this time, so the comment is just. Are you saying that speaking without knowing is not your fault? Please.

I don't understand your post. What was I wrong about? Please try to be specific when flaming me, as I post so many mistakes.

The part about associates is true enough [not what we were talking about], but as long as you are following your code and are acting LG, you can still be a Paladin of Vecna. Associates is a vague term at best. Is an associate a member of your party? A guy who pays you? It could mean anything, I don't see it as very useful in figuring out exactly what is and isn't permitted. Can a paladin be in a party with an evil member? I know WotC doesn't want you to do that, but this seems to be a definite association, so I would say no. What if someone has a cursed item making them evil, and it's not their fault? That's more difficult. I'd have to say yes he could. A judgement call.

If you maintain that paladins can worship evil gods, we'll have to agree to disagree. My position is that you're ignoring the rules for associates (and alignment in general) by letting them worship an evil god, and that is why I brought up associates. I would think (and probably WOTC thought) that this would be common sense, and wouldn't need a rule.

From the SRD for everyone's convenience:

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good.

I don't think it is a good idea to be one, it would be hard if not impossible to play, but there is no reason you couldn't be one, unless you take a hard line on the limits of association, which would mean you couldn't work directly with any of them, a serious limitation but not a prohibition.

Admit you were wrong, it is good for the soul! Maybe Vecna will take you in.

Vecna be damned, I'll fight his evil to my dying breath, as well as his legions of blackguards posing as paladins.


I find the discussion interesting, so let's not let it devolve into a flame war or go too far off-topic. It really doesn't matter whether anyone is 100% correct on the rules all the time, especially when paladins are the subject. There are lots of ways to interpret the rules, since the paladin involves using roleplaying requirements to balance game mechanics, something that the rest of 3E avoids.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What the...

What's with all the people here saying that "their code" is such-and-such, or that a paladin needs "a code"...The Paladin, as the PH says, has a code...It's printed right there in the class description. It's a vague code, but it's still a code. I would make a paladin PC use this code unless it was a variant paladin.

....So I just guess I don't understand about a paladin needing a "my code," because, for the most part, there is only one code and it is meant to be followed by all paladins, and it's in the PH.

Not that I'm against it...it's just that I find it strange that people allow variant paladin codes when one already exists that kinda enforces a LG attitude.

And the LG alignment isn't very restrictive. Nowhere does it say an LG person has to act with honor or defend the innocent to his dying breath or pursue the fight against evil or even be looking out for the common good.

In general terms, LG is someone who likes some sort of order and coherence to life, and wants good things to happen to as many people as possible. It doesn't mean they can't be sneaky or deceptive or lie.

A Paladin's Code basically enforces that.

...and I think that, in the case of lying, it is the spirit that matters, not the letter. Saying something that's true that isn't honest is perverting the intention of the rule.

First of all, a paladin, according to the PH, isn't specifically restricted from lying. Fib away, if you think it would make the fight against evil better. They're evil. They don't *deserve* the truth. In the same way, being sneaky is okay, as long as you're furthering the cause of good for it.

Of course, the Paladin's Code would probably stop you from attacking an enemy that isn't evil without warning first...no ambushes, but you can avoid being noticed, if you'd like. Hitting somebody when they can't see you isn't very honorable.

A Paladin, IMC, could take a vow of honesty. It would mean, yeah, when asked about his business, he would have to be truthful and say "I'm here to find the source of evil," or something. He has to be honest (which is different from not lying).

Of course, he could also say: "I'll tell you if you beat me in a duel with swords. My friends here will stand aside, but will interviene to ensure my safety, and I am a Paladin, so you can trust my word that they will not harm you. Defeat me in a duel with swords, and you will have proved that you are trustworthy enough to tell. Otherwise, take my word as a Paladin that I shall not endanger your village or the people within it on this journey into it."

Why should a Paladin want to devieve, be tricky, anyway? They are fighting the Good Fight. Hiding that is not letting the true glory of Goodness shine through, and they may feel shamed, at the least.

Of course, according to the PH, this isn't even a problem, since Paladins can lie all they want and still retain their powers...as long as it doesn't reach the "dishonorable" point (like, lying for your own gain as opposed to the good of everyone).