Paladins and Good Aligned Folk In War - Are Orc Children Slain?

[Quasqueton]

"Often: The creature tends towards the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A Plurality (40-50%) of indiciduals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common."

That makes no mention of what the other alignments might be, leaving it entierly in the hands of the DM to decide. Indeed a close reading seems to indicate that there is a slightly greater chance that you would encounter a non-evil orc (since the 50% is at the extream end of the range).

Here is the difference:

Orcs: often CE (say 45%)

Some think this way:
CE 45%, NE 22% (one step away from C main), CN 22% (one step away from E main), NN 10% (one step away from both main), other 1%

Some think this way:
CE 45%, other 55% (equally across the alignment spectrum)

I see it the first way. Those in the NN catagory, or the "other" category are called either "PCs" or "plot".

Quasqueton

 

[tonym]

..."while searching the body of the orc woman you find a bundle of cloth wraped around a softly crying orc babe..."

I'm as practical as the next guy when ridding the D&D world of evil monsters and their progeny, but if faced with the hypothetical situation quoted above, my PC would likely have pity on a lone orc baby.

Which makes me wonder...would I also have pity if the young orc was 10 years old? And, if I did, would that be a stupid mistake?

I direct the following questions to the folks who say baby orcs should be captured and raised to be Good...

At what age does a young orc need to be killed, for the safety of society? Take the movie Conan, for example. Conan was about 10 or so when he saw his father and mother killed. He was taken prisoner by the killers--not executed. Years later, as an adult, Conan got his revenge when he killed his parents' killers and destroyed their society.

Shouldn't I be worried that a captured orc child will avenge his parents in a like manner?

If I should kill older orc children, at what age do I kill them? Certainly I would kill the teenagers, right? But what about a 10-year-old orc who saw his parents killed? What about a 7-year-old orc? A 5-year-old orc?

For arguements sake, let's assume the orc children in question register no evil alignment, they all saw their parents killed by the PCs, and they all said, in Orcish, "I will avenge my parents." What then?

Tony M

 

[Ibram]

So a elven paladin (two allignment steps away from chaotic good) is, barring special campaign considerations, less realistic than a chaotic good orc....

From a straight reading of the RAW thats the way it sounds to me.

In my campaing all the mortal races (like orcs, humans, dwarves, goblins) have free will, they can chose their own path in life. Most orcs are not evil, they are certianly barbaric but that is cultural not "genetic". there is no auto-hate for most orc tribes when it comes to humans, indeed orcs are often employed as mercenaries by human nations. taking the world as a whole most orcs dont even hate dwarves, as they probably have never been in contact with them. now they dont get along very well as there are deep cultural diffrences between both groups.

 

[Ibram]

Which makes me wonder...would I also have pity if the young orc was 10 years old? And, if I did, would that be a stupid mistake?

I direct the following questions to the folks who say baby orcs should be captured and raised to be Good...

At what age does a young orc need to be killed, for the safety of society? Take the movie Conan, for example. Conan was about 10 or so when he saw his father and mother killed. He was taken prisoner by the killers--not executed. Years later, as an adult, Conan got his revenge when he killed his parents' killers and destroyed their society.

Shouldn't I be worried that a captured orc child will avenge his parents in a like manner?

If I should kill older orc children, at what age do I kill them? Certainly I would kill the teenagers, right? But what about a 10-year-old orc who saw his parents killed? What about a 7-year-old orc? A 5-year-old orc?

For arguements sake, let's assume the orc children in question register no evil alignment, they all saw their parents killed by the PCs, and they all said, in Orcish, "I will avenge my parents." What then?

Tony M

It would depend on the type of PC I was playing... but looking back over my PCs I doubt any of them would have killed the child.

Some were kind hearted, and would probably have taken steps to help the child survive.

Most would have viewed it as dishonorable to kill an unarmed creature.... saying something along the lines of what "The Bride" said in Kill Bill 1 "If you still feel raw about this when your older come and find me." yes, it sets up problems for later (I prefer to think of them as plot hooks), but the thought of striking down someone so much weaker rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Ibram]

Here is the difference:

Orcs: often CE (say 45%)

Some think this way:
CE 45%, NE 22% (one step away from C main), CN 22% (one step away from E main), NN 10% (one step away from both main), other 1%

Quasqueton

that still leaves 33%. so go through the orc children and add two out of every threes head to the pole along with their parents.

 

[lukelightning]

People need to stop thinking about orcs/goblins/kobolds/et. al. as humans in strange bodies. Even without supernatural or concrete evil, perhaps there is something inherent in the biologies of these creatures that leads them to believe in ways we see as evil.

Perhaps orcs are genetically predisposed to extreme aggression that includes assault, rape, and infanticide? There are many parallels in the real world (e.g. lions regularly practice infanticide (killing their rival's children). This is inborn and can't be changed. There are humans with brain disorders that cause them to be psychopaths: imagine a species with a similar trait.

 

[Darth Mikey]

You guys are looking at it the wrong way.

Think of it as forestry. If you run out and cut down all the trees, what happens?

So if you kill all the orc women and orc children, what are you going to do in 10-20 years when you want some treasure?

Or, in 10-20 years when the orcs are gone, who are the adventurers going to raid for treasure? YOU.

Now, when your character is retired in his keep, with his harem of demi-human concubines, does he really want to be beating away pesky adventurers? Hell no! Just spread some rumors that the orcs have kidnapped somebody and off they go.

Besides, when you're an epic level retired killing machine are you really going to be worried if that orc comes back seeking vengeance? Hell, after a "normal" adventuring career you'll have a host of angels, demons, spurned barmaids, outraged halflings, orphaned giants, outsiders, insiders, slaad, githyanki, mind flayers and a partridge in a pear treant all chasing after you. An orc is the least of your problems.

 

[tonym]

...Besides, when you're an epic level retired killing machine are you really going to be worried if that orc comes back seeking vengeance?

If I'm understanding you and Ibram correctly, you both advocate letting 5-, 7-, and 10-year-old orcs live after killing their parents.

Your reasons are: striking down weaker opponents rubs you the wrong way, and you can kill them when they're fully grown, if forced to.

Those reasons make sense, but they are waaay optimistic. In my world, this is what happens next! Bwahaha.

Conorc, one of the orcish children you spared, grew to become Conorc the Barbarian, one of the most brutal killing machines ever to walk the earth. His success as a killer was largely fueled by hatred of your PCs and their species. After killing both of your PCs in revenge for murdering his parents, he kills your PC's family and friends, and then goes on a rampage for 5 years, killing 732 additional humans of all ages (babies included).

Conorc is finally killed by my NPC, Borgen OrcSlayer, a Paladin.

Note that Conorc had thirty children with thirty different orcish mothers. Borgen killed all 60 of them. They happened to be the last orcs on the planet! With less warfare to worry about, humanity enjoys 1000 years of peace and prosperity, later known as The Age of No Orcs.

Tony M

 

[Darth Mikey]

Not exactly.

I'm just pointing out the differences in styles and trying to lighten up a dark thread with a little humor. I'm not trying to criticize anyone's playing style or anything like that. I'm simply advocating that it's a game and I'm just playing it for fun.

Have you ever read the Deathlands series by James Axler? It's a post apoc series where the "heroes" will literally kill ANYONE who crosses them, and in some cases, anyone who THINKS about crossing them or who could be a potential threat in the future. In several instances the "heroes" killed children and other non-combatants.

It's brutal, bleak and probably all too realistic.

That's not why I play roleplaying games.

I play RPG's to be the hero. In RL when bad things happen you basically have to suck it up and take it. In the games, you can go out and kick some ass. You can escape reality for a while and have fun.

Game on.

 

[tonym]

Oh. That sounds cool.

(I didn't read those books, btw.)

Okay, here's what happens in Reality #2!...

One of the orc babes that Darth Mikey's PC did not kill, grows up to be a powerful diplomat for the human race. In his lifetime he negotiates an unprecedented truce between the orcs and the humans. This truce lasts for 1000 years--a period later known as The Age When the Dwarves Were Wiped Out.


Tony M