Paladins at war (apologies in advance)

I think I've become warped through reading these threads. :)

Paladins, in my mind, should typically play the role of assassin. (If not multiclass... I'm still certainly waiting for the day to play that.)

This surely isn't for everyone, but the idea of knighthood and chivalry always repelled me a bit. The idea of the holy warrior striving as hard as they can to fight evil does. Lawful for me means a strict code is followed, and that code could follow the knightly bits, but it clicks a lot more for me when it does not.

Of course, I'd say there's nothing inherently evil nor chaotic about poison use too, of course.

If anything, I'd at LEAST lobby for allowing chaotic good cleric/assassins of certain dieties in your games. :)
 

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I've always been pretty strict about Paladins, I suspect significantly more strict than quite a few people here would think appropriate. I have, I think 2 major concerns that shape my approach:

1) The kill all evil everywhere you find it approach just isn't good as far as I'm concerned. The notion that a Paladin will slay orcs just because they are there doesn't fly with me. I know that's a viable approach in its own right, but it just involves a conception of good that I can't work with. It cuts too close to some of the worst in human behavior. Were I to suggest a real world conception of evil, such attitudes would have a lot to do with it. And I've just studied one too many historical events in which people were killed in mass because some wretch decided "nits make lice," or to "Kill them all; the Lord will know his own."

So, anyway, Paladins in my world must give peace a chance, so to speak. They must not kill unprovoked, even those who are clearly likely to give the provocation in due time. I make exceptions for lesser undead and/or vermin as these are not sentient and in the former case it is arguably an act of mercy. By logical extension, I do allow for a significant number of exceptions to stereotypical alignments in at least the humanoid species. Orcs aren't always evil in my world, for example; sometimes they are quite capable of good. I also run quite a few evil NPCs who are quite capable of being handled diplomatically. Just because a creature might enjoy killing every peasant for miles doesn't mean that they will do so. If the proper arrangements can be made, one may sometimes coexist with evil creatures. So, diplomatic approaches are not entirely implausible in my world.

2) I think a large part of what a Paladin does is not so much about being good as about being superior. That is what his code of honour is about; it's what sets him apart - above - his Squire, the regular soldiers in his army, and certainly the scum he fights. A Paladin will not strike a fallen foe, no will he attack an enemy without warning. He would prefer one on one combat if he can get it, and while he might not object to fighting in a group against a group, there is a point at which he would find ganging up on an enemy gross and beneath his station. Yes, I think he would team up with others to fight a superior opponent (say a Dragon), but he isn't going to be the 4th man beating down an enemy of comparable ability. Is this about being good? Not at all; it is about honour, the honour of a class of people who must demonstrate absolute supriority over common soldiers.

To answer some specific questions, I think a lot of the Paladin's code falls hardest on the donditions in which battle begins, but he would also avoid grossly unfair advantages that emerge during battle. I think a Paladin might participate in an ambush to gain tactical advantage and confront the enemy on his own terms. But the first blow would not be from concealment; he would want to confront the enemy first, perhaps even give them a chance to surrender. This defeats the purpose of the ambush as far as the Rogue is concerned, but to the Paladin the ambush has served its purpose when he is able to confront the enemy in a time and place of his own choosing.

I think feint would be okay, if the Paladin was to take advantage of the opportunity hiself, not as a means of creating opportunities for others. Spies? Sure, though the Paladin would never be one himself, and he would not order an assassination or a theft. He would obey his superiors, but not if ordered to do something entirely dishonourable or evil. A fallen foe would be given a chance to regain his footing, one devoid of a weapon given a chance to arm himself. In the rush of a group combat, a Paladin might not make too much of this, simply moving on to a different opponent when one loses its footing. But if engaged in a one on one duel of sorts, the Paladin would insist on giving the enemy the chance, even gaurding the foe until it is again prepared to fight. This sort of honour isn't accorded to every troll, duergar, or goblin, but worthy opponents, once engaged will be bested only by honourable means.

On occassion, Paladins in my world have even healed a foe struck down by fellow party member (while in combat with the Paladin) in order to resume an honourable combat. This has most often been done after the riff raff has been dealt with or when things look otherwise under control. Paladins have also warned foes of the presence of assassins on their own side and shooed Rogues away from sneak attack opportunities against the Paladin's own foes.

I wouldn't really argue that all of this is dictated by the text of the Player's Handbook. A lot has to do with codes of chivalry that I tend to graft onto the class. Players wishing to play Paladins in my world are given notice of the expectation. Those unwilling to accept the stringent sense of honour are urged to play somethig else.
 
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"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who threaten innocents."

To be honest, I really fail to see any dilemma, but damn good topic.

A paladin will in not participate in assassins, sacking a city, raping, pillaging or other ‘chaotic acts of war”. She will however participate in using tactical advantage as surely as she will use a sword against a rogue with a dagger. Superior tactical advantage is not dishonorable, but rather, allows her to bring a conflict to resolution with the highest chance of least possible harm. After all, she is still primarily a warrior.

That premise accepted, the use of deceit, faints, disguised flanking, ambushing, use of spies (non assassins) are engaged in the intent of making the engagement as short as possible with the least loss of life, and minimal harm.
 

RangerWickett said:
In real war you need to ambush foes, attack with overwhelming numbers, and use deceptive maneuvers to outwit your enemies. Some interpretations of the paladin code would suggest that paladins ought to stay the hell out of a war.

Well, there's part of the issue - you're comparing real war to what happens in a fantasy game. Things that aren't effective in real war can be stunningly effective in D&D.

More to the point, what you need to do in real war isn't the same as what you need to do in fantasy war. And, in addition, what we now think of as necessary in war has not always been seen so.

You can imagine a scene where a group is waiting to attack a supply convoy, but when the convoy comes within range, the paladin stands up and issues a noble challenge. A minute later, the enemy convoy has either retreated or has managed to kill half the paladin's allies. Good job with that honor of yours, buddy.

Um, no, on a few levels.

First off, there have been times and places in human history where the rules of warfare were far more strict than they are for us today. There was a time when war was fought by massed armies meeting on a field, with little or no concept of stealth...

Check out Shakespeare - in Henry V, there's a clear passage noting that attacking the boys in the luggage was a direct violation of the Rules of War. Henry was aghast that a civilized enemy would do so. Today, we'd call it "necessary" to eliminate the enemy's supply.

Meanwhile, today we think that a tent with a Red Cross on the top, and men in light blue helmets, are sacrosanct. But Ghengis Kahn would likely not have cared a whit. Methods change with time.

Plus, convoys of heavily laden horse-drawn wagons do *not* retreat on the order of minutes - certainly not relative to a bunch of mounted knights. Encumbrance will have it's due. And the convoy won't eradicate those nights in just a moment or two when the knights all have phenomenal saving throws... :)
 

I'd say that a paladin would be required to use spies, ambushes, and flanking to win a war. Paraphrasing Sun Tzu here, but the best general isn't the one who kills all his enemies, it's the one who wins without killing any.

A paladin would treat enemies fairly, and respect requests for parlay(sp?) or surrender. But once battle is joined, it's all out.

After all, paladins don't have Tickle Evil into Submission as a class ability.
 

Take a look at the contrast between the Knights of the Watch and the Knights of Dispatch.

The Knights of the Watch are all about fair fights and fair play. Never retreat. Never ambush.

The Knights of Dispatch were formed to fight the Giants after Geoff and Sterich were invaded. They ambush, sneak, wear light armor, etc.

Both groups have lots of Paladins and engage in massive warfare.
 

What are Paladins fighting wars for, anyway? They're supposed to be out there fighting dragons and saving princesses. Fighters fight wars. Paladins do heroic rescues.
 

RangerWickett said:
Despite their obvious combat talents and clear inspiration from classical chivalrous knights, paladins seem ill-suited to actual warfare, except in the most white-washed and happy settings.

Hmmmm. Strange that the ideal invented by the warrior class of Europe seems so ill-suited to what you call "actual warfare".

Very generally, I think the problems are that:
1. The technological and cultural context that created the paladin needs to be understood better. Ie. heavy cavalry (paladin) doesn't do skirmisher's work (ambushing caravans).
2. Wars are fought in an environment where morale and diplomacy matter too. I would think a paladin would have advantages in those areas that the examples in the OP don't cover.
3. The DnD game does NOT do a good job of "fantasy world simulation". DnD was designed for dungeon crawls, and to extrapolate from the rules into some sort of fantasy world - well - there might not be any castles much less paladins.
4. Lawful Good shouldn't be defined as the most restrictive of the combination of both modern sensibilities and medieval culture. Also, some of the belief system that inspires most people's definition of Lawful Good is based on a monotheistic world view. "Play fair and good things will follow." That's not the typical religious/cultural environment of DnD. And if that's not incorporated into the rules somehow, then the choice of being a paladin is irrational - which is not the way that the people who unheld the code of chivalry viewed it.
 

Tactics and morality are almost always seperate issues.

Ambushing, attacking with superior forces, attacking supply lines, etc? All perfectly valid. Nobody's got a problem with them, not even a paladin.

Now the paladin would have a problem with things like poisoning wells, spreading plague amongst enemy lands, or sacrificing otherwise uninvolved civilian population for a strategic advantage, but that's hardly a supprise. Non-paladins see that sort of thing as equally despicable.

Paladins can use stealth, fight intelligently, and take advantage of tactics. They are not relegated to being stupid by an extension of their code of conduct.
 

I'm not sure what book it was in, but I know it was a WotC book, but it said that Paladins aren't stupid, and can definitely feint in combat, attack from the flanks and rear in a war, and generally use any reasonable and intelligent tactics they need to.


The Lawful Stupid paradigm for Paladins gets used far too often.
 

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