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Paladin's Divine Challenge
- Thread starter david_annable
- Start date
david_annable
First Post
I'm going to get very verbose here to put this to bed for myself and my players.
The text of Divine Challenge on the character sheet from KotS reads:
Effect: You mark the target. If the creature was already marked, you mark supersedes the previous one. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
The text from the PHB reads:
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
In both cases the "see below" text reads:
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.
Taking the PHB version as an authority and breaking it down logically:
1) You mark the target.
- done. the target gets a mark
2) The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target.
- ok. we know that the mark is persistent and what conditions end the mark: either it's used on someone else or the character fails to engage.
- the definition of "engage" is simple: attack your target or end your turn adjacent to it. (this power can be tough to use against Dragonshields as they can shift away after a move action but before the attack, hence negating the mark and leaving the Paladin unable to Divine Challenge next turn. Since Divine Challenge is a minor action, players should try and remember to use it after they've moved to minimize this.)
3) A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time.
- this qualifies as another way the mark can be removed, but (IIRC) it applies to all marks all the time. Any given creature can only ever have a single mark.
To summarize, the Paladin can Divine Challenge and leave that creature marked as long as he engages it every turn. If he fails to engage, the mark disappears.
The text of Divine Challenge on the character sheet from KotS reads:
Effect: You mark the target. If the creature was already marked, you mark supersedes the previous one. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
The text from the PHB reads:
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
In both cases the "see below" text reads:
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.
Taking the PHB version as an authority and breaking it down logically:
1) You mark the target.
- done. the target gets a mark
2) The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target.
- ok. we know that the mark is persistent and what conditions end the mark: either it's used on someone else or the character fails to engage.
- the definition of "engage" is simple: attack your target or end your turn adjacent to it. (this power can be tough to use against Dragonshields as they can shift away after a move action but before the attack, hence negating the mark and leaving the Paladin unable to Divine Challenge next turn. Since Divine Challenge is a minor action, players should try and remember to use it after they've moved to minimize this.)
3) A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time.
- this qualifies as another way the mark can be removed, but (IIRC) it applies to all marks all the time. Any given creature can only ever have a single mark.
To summarize, the Paladin can Divine Challenge and leave that creature marked as long as he engages it every turn. If he fails to engage, the mark disappears.
Another question on paladin marks...
Lets say you marked a monster randomly named... Barkfang... an orc that has a melee power that reads:
Dual Pick(Standard, when Barkfang doesn't move on his turn; at will)
Make a basic melee attack against two adjacent creatures.
If the paladin has Barkfang marked, and he attacks the paladin and another character, does that trigger the paladins mark?
I would think yes because... the paladins mark says:
Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma
modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn
In this case, the first time he uses one of the two basic attacks to attack someone else... meaning, the second target of the power.
It isn't like a mage throwing an area affect, because it includes the paladin in the area... in this case, this is two separate, attacks.
Lets say you marked a monster randomly named... Barkfang... an orc that has a melee power that reads:
Dual Pick(Standard, when Barkfang doesn't move on his turn; at will)
Make a basic melee attack against two adjacent creatures.
If the paladin has Barkfang marked, and he attacks the paladin and another character, does that trigger the paladins mark?
I would think yes because... the paladins mark says:
Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma
modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn
In this case, the first time he uses one of the two basic attacks to attack someone else... meaning, the second target of the power.
It isn't like a mage throwing an area affect, because it includes the paladin in the area... in this case, this is two separate, attacks.
2eBladeSinger
First Post
While I acknowledge that requiring a paladin to engage the target to continue to benefit from his mark is a good thing and within the spirit of the rules, it seems that allowing an enemy to run away from the paladin (thus, not allowing the paladin to use his mark the next turn) to avoid the mark is not within the spirit of the rules. The point is to force the enemy to attack the paladin - The enemy should not be granted an advantage for running away... IMO.
Last edited:
2eBladeSinger said:
I was originally going to house rule this to also keep the challenge going if the creature moves away from the Paladin, however with Divine Challenge being a minor action I think it might be an unnecessary addition. If the creature does move away from the Paladin, then the Paladin will have to make the choice of following the creature, ranged attacking him, or Divine Challenging another closer enemy. In addition, forcing a creature to retreat to the point where the Paladin cannot follow is probably to the tactical advantage of the PC's party so I'm willing to call it a wash for right now... at least until I play with it for an extended period of time.*
*Side Note: By playing with it I mean creating a Warlock multiclassed into Paladin who can Divine Challenge a creature once per encounter and then Eyebite it each round to hopefully make it incapable of attacking me every other round or so (depending on my attack rolls and its Will Defense).
2eBladeSinger
First Post
Kurotowa said:
Right, 'Forced' is probably the wrong word.
My orginial post was in error. It should read: The Enemy shoud NOT be given an advantage for running away.
I still stand by this.
david_annable
First Post
Okay, assuming Standpoint A is correct and you need to keep engaging every turn or lose your mark and lose your ability to mark, is this power crippled compared to other marking powers (like the fighters)? Does the fact that this power is a minor at-will make any difference? The fighter's mark isn't persistent at all and requires an attack action to place on someone whereas Divine Challenge can be placed as a minor action from a short distance away.
I'd like to hear debate from anyone on either side...
I'd like to hear debate from anyone on either side...
2eBladeSinger
First Post
It’s true that the fighter’s mark takes a standard action to activate, however, he gets to attack and basically gets a mark for free. While the mark doesn’t last, it doesn’t have the disadvantage of forcing the fighter into any particular action and the fighter can mark multiple opponents.
A paladin is probably going to be wearing heavy armor and be at -1 to move, limiting his range. Most enemies will be able to outrun him. And should an enemy outrun him, the paladin is put in the disadvantageous situation of not being able to use his mark the next round. So that the paladin can mark from some distance away is not really an advantage because if he does, then his enemy is that much farther away from him and able to outrun him. And if the character has multi-classed into paladin and has only one use of the mark per encounter, then it can be made obsolete by a quick enemy. That loophole may have been intentional – but this doesn’t mesh very well with the idea that defenders are supposed to be ‘sticky’.
A paladin is probably going to be wearing heavy armor and be at -1 to move, limiting his range. Most enemies will be able to outrun him. And should an enemy outrun him, the paladin is put in the disadvantageous situation of not being able to use his mark the next round. So that the paladin can mark from some distance away is not really an advantage because if he does, then his enemy is that much farther away from him and able to outrun him. And if the character has multi-classed into paladin and has only one use of the mark per encounter, then it can be made obsolete by a quick enemy. That loophole may have been intentional – but this doesn’t mesh very well with the idea that defenders are supposed to be ‘sticky’.
