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Paladins in 3.5, why?

Thank you Hypersmurf, I completly agree!

Keep in mind, though, that it doesn't mean I agree with you about some of your other ideas about Paladins ;)

I really, really dislike Corinth's mindless boolean hunter-killer robot paladins, but I think your interpretation is also too rigid.

-Hyp.
 

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Hypersmurf said:
I cannot conceive of a world where, if Paladins acted like that, they would not be hunted down and exterminated.
Some places would do just that, for one reason or another.
Thought Police with a license to dispense death.

That's not a Paladin
Yes they are. Otherwise they wouldn't either the powers or the mandate to do just that.
 

The issue, as I see it, boils down to the following:

Who would be willing/likely to grant a portion of divine power to a neophyte follower?

Right off the bat, we can eliminate evil gods. Evil presumes selfishness (at least to me) - an evil god isn't going to bother pouring his power into an unproven and weak vessel. That is too risky - evil, being selfish wants guarantees - you have to prove your worthiness in advance.

We can also eliminate chaotic gods. They are too capricious, and would tend to grant and take away their favor on a whim. The servant of a chaotic god might do something one day and gain favor - then do the same thing a week later and be ill-favored of the god for it.

Will neutral gods (good/evil or law/chaos axes) do it? Probably not - a thing is what it is, and it disrupts the balance of things to arbitrarily grant it more power.

That leaves us with lawful good. Will a good deity grant his power to a neophyte? I think the answer is yes - because selflessness and trust are characteristics of a good deity. Where the evil deity says, "show me what you can do first, then I will give you the power," a good deity says, "I will grant you the power, and you will be given a chance to show me what you can do." Will a lawful deity grant power to a neophyte? Yes... with certain terms and conditions for you keeping the power.

In addition, when is the best time for a LG god to shape the character of his servant? In the beginning of his career, of course, before habits are developed. A LG god wants to start the training process ASAP. Because of the particular demands of this shaping process, investiture of divine power is almost required so as to allow the character survive long enough to become the paragon of virtue he is expected to become... after all, when your job description entails, "stand toe-to-toe with evil, every time you see it," you'll be put in danger a lot more often than anyone else.

Thus, I can actually see, based on alignment, an argument for HAVING the paladin as a core class. I hope my brief arguments came across.

Basically, the lawful good deity is willing to offer you a trial period with his power, subject to certain conditions, before you prove yourself. The evil deity is not willing to offer you power until you prove yourself, and the chaotic deity is too capricious to do so. The neutral deity simply doesn't want to upset the natural balance by investing his power.

I someone can provide a compelling argument as to why a LG deity would NOT be willing to accept a paladin into service at first level (or why a deity of another alignment would), I'm open to hearing it.

--The Sigil
 


RE: Paladinbots...

IMO, a paladin is someone who is the personification of law and good. He cannot tolerate evil. But part of that means mercy. IMO, a paladin, when he finds an evil creature, is required to confront that creature in order to eliminate evil. He is then to offer the creature a choice.

"Repent or be destroyed."

Should the creature repent (and repentance is, IMO, a process, not an event), that is the most desirable outcome for the paladin. This takes a creature that was evil and sees him become good. The paladin is a "builder of good" not a "destroyer of evil" in this case - which is a double bonus as the amount of evil in the world is reduced AND the amount of good is increased.

If the choice of the creature is to not repent, however, the paladin, because his requirement not to tolerate evil, is obligated to destroy the creature. This is not as good as repentance, as the amount of evil in the world is reduced, but the amount of good is not increased.

I can see some paladins as being very world-weary... genuinely sorry that they have to destroy a creature that refuses to repent, yet because of their resolve to destroy evil, able to bring themselves to destroy the creature... and sorrowing that the poor soul didn't repent and must now suffer in hell for eternity. I picture the paladin who weeps with remorse for the individual whom he has just slain, genuinely sorrowful that because they refused to turn back, it is now everlastingly too late.

--The Sigil
 


drothgery said:


... and just as an FYI for anyone getting the wrong idea, Book of the Righteous Holy Warriors have to be Good (though it's deity-specific whether they're Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic).

Actually I'm pretty sure that they have to be non-evil, not good. And there's a book coming out for unholy warriors soon, if it's not already here.
 

Re: RE: Paladinbots...

The Sigil said:
I can see some paladins as being very world-weary... genuinely sorry that they have to destroy a creature that refuses to repent, yet because of their resolve to destroy evil, able to bring themselves to destroy the creature... and sorrowing that the poor soul didn't repent and must now suffer in hell for eternity. I picture the paladin who weeps with remorse for the individual whom he has just slain, genuinely sorrowful that because they refused to turn back, it is now everlastingly too late.

My view seems to fit Sigil's the best. A paladin is a dispenser of justice - but also a medium for good, including weal toward others.

I also want to thank everyone in this discussion for keeping things civil. Paladins and alignments are #3 of the top 10 explosive arguments we ever get into here, and while the discussion has been heated, it's been civil. :)
 

Olive said:


Actually I'm pretty sure that they have to be non-evil, not good. And there's a book coming out for unholy warriors soon, if it's not already here.

Book of the Righteous, p. 243, 1st paragraph (Alignment)

... the purpose of a holy warrior is to do good in the name of her god, and therefore all holy warriors are good, even if their god is neutral in the good/evil spectrum ...
 

DarkMan said:
Definately PRC. Its the only core class with one and only one "code of conduct," the only core class that allows one and only one alignment, and there's the multiclass restriction on top of that.

Of course you can play a "different" type of paladin- meaning you can use different armor and weapons... but that's about it.

There's a character in my campaign who is playing a paladin that's not so bright. In fact, he doesn't even know he's a Paladin. He gets "bad vibes" (detect evil), he generally only uses his power attack against evil opponents (smite evil) and tries to give first aid (lay on hands) but the paladin has no idea he's favored by Hieroneous and is probably going to be very surprised when a Horse starts following him around. I suppose by fourth level another paladin or a priest is going to have to explain to him what he's all about. This is far and away the most enjoyable Paladin I've ever had the pleasure to DM. Most of the other players haven't even caught on yet since the player of the paladin and I have worked on verbal queues when he wants the Paladin to use his special abilities.

That's a lot different then the usual Goblin Smashing Knight in Shining armor we are all used to seeing.
 

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