Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[Trainz]

Greetings,

I'm playing a Paladin in the Sunless Citadel adventure.

I have a problem of conscience...

So far we've helped kobolds capture a white dragon that I stunned and brought back to them.

My Paladin knows the dragon is evil, as well as the kobolds.

What do you guys think ? Should I have attacked the kobolds on sight, and killed the dragon ? Should I come back and kill them ?

 

[Kershek]

Most definitely on all counts.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Believe it or not, paladins need not kill every evil thing they meet--even if it has scales.

If a paladin encounters an evil baker who shuts down a soup kitchen because the riff raff it attracts are bad for business, would he be obliged to kill the baker because of his code? Of course not.

How about a womanizing lout who knocked up the mayor's dauther and then abandoned her as "used goods"? Probably not.

The neighboring empire that is at peace with the paladin's kingdom but has an evil state religion that corrupted the hearts of a majority of its citizens. The paladin probably won't like them but he isn't obliged to wipe them all out.

The kobolds and their dragon aren't any different. If the paladin judges that they are (or will be--the idea that a paladin shouldn't act until the bad guys are ready to wipe out the entire world is silly) a threat to good communities in the area and that he has the skill, strength, and companions to be successful in his endeavor (the paladin accomplishes nothing by getting himself and his allies killed in a hopeless and unnecessary battle), he would have reason to attack them. Even then, however, I don't believe that the paladin's code would require it. Some threats can (or must) be dealt with without slaughter.

So far we've helped kobolds capture a white dragon that I stunned and brought back to them.

My Paladin knows the dragon is evil, as well as the kobolds.

What do you guys think ? Should I have attacked the kobolds on sight, and killed the dragon ? Should I come back and kill them ?

 

[d4]

i agree with Basilisk.

when i ran Sunless Citadel for my group, the paladin PC was instrumental in normalizing relations between Meepo's tribe and the human town down the road. they began trading, and the hope was that they could eventually turn the Sunless tribe away from evil.

fighting evil doesn't mean you always have to kill it.

[one caveat: although Yusdrayl was LE, i made Meepo LN -- which helped the diplomacy go a little smoother.]

 

[Kershek]

There is really no reason to believe that the kobolds won't turn on the nearby villagers of Oakhurst. After all, the goblins are already causing trouble with them. I doubt that a paladin would want to leave known evil creatures and possibly have it on his head that they would do Oakhurst harm in the future. What, you think that white dragon will grow up to be an active supporter of the community? And you never know, the goblins and kobolds could eventually decide to band together and overrun the town for the greater evil.

As a paladin, I would think this all smells bad, and I would cut it off at the head before it has time to become a bigger problem.

 

[Trainz]

That's exactly my problem. It is more probable that the goblins and kobolds ally and do evil things than the kobolds being neutral to other creatures in the future.

And that's a very good point about the white dragon: When all is said and done, it IS an inherently evil creature. If I don't kill it now, it will probably kill hundreads of innocents when it will be grown-up.

*sigh*

My fellow PC's will hate me. I'll ask my DM to come read this thread so that he understands what I'm about to do...

 

[Kershek]

I want to point out that Elder-Basilisk and d4 have some very good points about paladins. They aren't lawful stupid and will make smart decisions based on what is presented to them and the concequences of their actions. For them, there's always a balance that needs to be made between zealotry and suicide.

In this case, I believe the killing is justified in a Minority Report sort of way

 

[Trainz]

My DM has agreed to make Meepo Neutral, so that he doesn't flash red when I start What Must Be Done. I'm very glad about this, because we were allied with Meepo for a while, and he didn't act in an evil way (in fact, he prevented random Kobold patrols from attacking us).

I'm sure he will hate us when we'll start hacking at the kobolds, and especially his beloved dragon, but I intend to take care of him.

Damn. I'm sure I'm not the first one that decided to take Meepo with him. This adventure has a way to fashion things outside it's basic scope.

A Paladin with a kobold follower ?

*sigh*

 

[Arravis]

I think only a fool would base his judgement of weather someone lives or dies simply on a divination such as detect evil. I played through the Sunless Citadel with a paladin and he also came to a diplomatic solution. To me, if the paladin would have simply attacked the kobolds because he detected evil, the paladin himself would be the evil one. Being "good" is more about mercy, forgiveness, and sympathy then the ability to kill "evil" people. Just my 2 cents...

P.S.: Trainz, I dont' see anything wrong with a paladin having a kobold follower. That's exactly what being "good" is all about. Intollerance, inflexability, and the "my way or the highway" mentality are what "evil" is all about.

 

[Kershek]

I think only a fool would base his judgement of weather someone lives or dies simply on a divination such as detect evil. I played through the Sunless Citadel with a paladin and he also came to a diplomatic solution. To me, if the paladin would have simply attacked the kobolds because he detected evil, the paladin himself would be the evil one. Being "good" is more about mercy, forgiveness, and sympathy then the ability to kill "evil" people. Just my 2 cents...

P.S.: Trainz, I dont' see anything wrong with a paladin having a kobold follower. That's exactly what being "good" is all about. Intollerance, inflexability, and the "my way or the highway" mentality are what "evil" is all about.

A paladin is a holy crusader against evil. Re-read the Paladin's description in the PHB. It says nothing about being tolerant to evil at all. If a creature is detected as evil, he doesn't have to wait for that creature to commit an atrocity in order to have justification to kill it - in fact, IMO he could assume that, because of an evil creature's nature, he already has done so.

I can understand if a lawful good cleric has more tolerance to not acting against an evil creature or entity. But it's the paladin's duty to protect good from evil. He considers such situations as tests to his faith and will to follow the righteous path. With a town of good people nearby, there are only bad things that can come from leaving a group of goblins and kobolds to their evil plans.