Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[LuYangShih]

A Paladin is granted divine gifts to ascertain the presence of evil, and the abilities to thusly deal with it. If the Paladin was meant as you seem to see the class, it would have vastly different abilities. Besides, did you not ever read the PHB? I quote, "Alhandra fights evil without mercy." As I said, Paladins are not social workers, they are virtuous warriors fighting a war against the forces of evil.

 

[Arravis]

Well, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't see how anyone can define merciless zealousness as "good". "Lawful", yes... good, no. Fighting evil doesn't mean attacking innocent people. A kobold, who might be selfish and greedy, but that's never done anyone any harm or wrong, isn't an evil to be stamped out without mercy. That is exactly the sort of actions that lead to a pety despotic tyrant.

Simply having the ability to "detect evil" isn't a license to kill indiscriminately as you claim. It's a guide, nothing more, it doesn't free the paladin of his responsability to make a judgement. Simply put, it's not an issue of being a "social worker", it's simply an issue of doing the right thing. No one ever claimed that doing the right and good thing is an easy thing to do.

 

[Kershek]

A paladin who did this in my game would be needing an atonement. He's not only good, he's also *lawful*. Attacking the kobolds and the dragon would mean betraying an ally, most definately a chaotic act. Basically, if the paladin feels these kobolds will be a threat he should not have agreed to aid them. Now that he has, he is honor-bound not to go after them unprovoked. Besides, it is the paladin's duty to go after evil that exists and threatens good people NOW, not worry about what may come in the future.

By this argument, the paladin would have needed an atonement for colluding with evil kobolds to free an evil dragon for their own use.

 

[Lazybones]

As I recollect, one of the Story Hour threads (was it Wizardru's?) had Meepo becoming a henchkobold of the party's paladin. The little guy seems to have played a prominent role in at least a dozen SHs that delved into the Citadel.

 

[LuYangShih]

Well, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't see how anyone can define merciless zealousness as "good". "Lawful", yes... good, no. Fighting evil doesn't mean attacking innocent people. A kobold, who might be selfish and greedy, but that's never done anyone any harm or wrong, isn't an evil to be stamped out without mercy.

If they detect as evil they have done wrong, they have done harm, and thus they do deserve to be stamped out without mercy. What is the point of the Paladins ability otherwise? I have always viewed that ability as a Paladin peering into someones soul and seeing the taint that lies there. The fact that the creatures have yet to act on that evil is irrelevant. It is the Paladins duty to make sure they never get the chance. The Paladin is a protector of the innocent, not of wicked humanoids. Your definition of "innocent" seems to be far from what mine is.

That is exactly the sort of actions that lead to a pety despotic tyrant.

A petty tyrant kills without cause, for amusement, or to oppress those under his reign. A Paladin eliminating a dangerous warren of evil humanoids does not fall under any of those three.

Simply having the ability to "detect evil" isn't a license to kill indiscriminately as you claim. It's a guide, nothing more, it doesn't free the paladin of his responsability to make a judgement.

A guide that confirms what the Paladin should already suspect. This is a dangerous group of Kobolds, rearing a clearly evil White Dragon. The Paladin has a chance to put an end to their evil before it grows to levels that will truly harm and destroy those innocents nearby. It is in fact his duty to do so.

Simply put, it's not an issue of being a "social worker", it's simply an issue of doing the right thing. No one ever claimed that doing the right and good thing is an easy thing to do.

Yes. It will not be easy, but the Paladin has his duty, to do what is right, and it calls him to the elimination of those evil beings that he has discovered. The Paladin combats and destroys evil, he does not accept or forgive it.

 

[d4]

just to stir the pot a bit...

it's been a while since i've read the module, but i don't remember any evidence that the kobold tribe has ever hurt or in any way threatened the human town of Oakhurst.

so, IMO, just because they detect as evil doesn't mean they are an imminent threat to the town and need to be wiped out.

if a paladin is walking down the street of a town and a passerby happens to detect as evil (say he a greedy and miserly but otherwise harmless NE merchant), is the paladin duty-bound to slay that person right there in the street as part of his "war on evil"?

 

[LuYangShih]

No. That would break the Lawful part of the Paladins alignment. Besides, Detect Evil is a guide to helping make the right decision. The question the Paladin should be asking himself is, "If I leave this tribe of Kobolds alone, to raise a White Dragon, what will the likely effects be?" The fact that all of them except Meepo detect as Evil should be answer enough.

 

[d4]

No. That would break the Lawful part of the Paladins alignment.

and slaying a group that the paladin had already formed an alliance and agreement with isnt?

Besides, Detect Evil is a guide to helping make the right decision. The question the Paladin should be asking himself is, "If I leave this tribe of Kobolds alone, to raise a White Dragon, what will the likely effects be?"

since the tribe has never shown any indication of wanting to harm or threaten Oakhurst in any way, the likely effect is that the tribe will simply stay in the Citadel and mind their own business. again, i don't have the module with me, but i believe the way it is written, Yusdrayl and the kobolds are the ones who first offer an alliance with the PCs, and i'd imagine that 9 times out of 10 this is the way it plays out. the kobolds show no indication of being a threat, and are the ones seeking an alliance with the humans.

The fact that all of them except Meepo detect as Evil should be answer enough.

well, there are degrees of evil. i don't think this is a tribe of serial killers and rapists. while they be mean and greedy, they don't really give the impression of being dangerous or a threat.

 

[LuYangShih]

So, since a group shows a predeliction for using adventurers to retrieve their sacred Dragon, they are somehow deserving of mercy? Cunning is a morally neutral trait. The Paladin, as far as we know, formed a momentary pact with the Kobolds as to avoid conflict at that time. Now that he has retrieved the Dragon for them, and cleared out the rest of the compound, he must make a decision as to whether or not he should leave these creatures alive. That does not at all break the Lawful alignment as far as I can see.

 

[Kershek]

Evil does not mind its own business. Hey, that sounds like a quote from The Tick

Since the kobolds are evil, they are offering an alliance for their own benefit, not the party's. They can also break that alliance and double-cross the party whenever it benefits them.

Just because they don't threaten Oakhurst now doesn't mean they won't when their baby evil dragon gets older and can level the town itself. Or perhaps the dragon will tire of the kobolds and kill them all, then kill the town of Oakhurst because it feels like it.

Because of their evil nature, they will do evil deeds. Whether or not these deeds involve Oakhurst is irrelevant. The party has had to have heard stories of how kobolds populate like rabbits and spread out across the land. Right now, the only reason they're held in check is the goblins. Are you going to kill the evil goblins and spare the evil kobolds?

A paladin could become fallen from entering into an agreement to free an evil dragon and give it to evil creatures. I don't think he would even think to enter into such an agreement. Instead, he would demand information from them as to where the dragon was so he could kill it. If forcing that information out included combat, then so be it.