Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

Aristotle said:
Hypothetical case...

A mighty warrior wishes to become king. In his heart he knows that he would do or say anything it takes to get his kingdom. Even if that meant murdering his brother, the heir to thr throne. He has not done any of these things yet, but he truly believes he is able. And he plots it every day of his life.

The warrior is evil, at least by my definition. He hasn't done anything yet. He may never actually act upon his secret desires. Maybe he will, and he'll become the most feared tyrant to have ever walked the earth. Detect evil can't tell you what the outcome will be; only that the man is evil. Do you kill him for what he might do?

I have to respond that if he doesn't do anything he is most definitely not evil. He would be a man who wrestles with his demons, but who always won. That may not be good, but it most definitely not evil.

One cannot use thought alone to determine evil or good, one must use actions. For using thoughts only would require some sort of prescience and such is outside the concept of the spell (ie. the spell is now "telling the future"). It also diminishes the concept of redemption that is vitally important for races that are not pre-disposed to evil.

joe b.
 
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jgbrowning said:
One cannot use thought alone to determine evil or good, one must use actions.

This would have to be where you and I disagree (and I'm ok with that). I believe that a person is often evil long before performing an evil act. In my eyes, your choice to be good or evil lies just as much in your soul as it does in your deeds.

The difference (once again, this is my opinion) is not that a good character wrestles his demons while a bad character gives in to them, so much as a good character acknowledges they are wrong and repents them and an evil character entertains and desires them. The fact that the character never actually performed the evil action might not signal that he has beaten back his demons. It might simply indicate he never found the oportunity to release them. Don't mistake calculated intelligence for self-control and valor.

So, my answer to your original question is yes. I believe someone can be evil without ever actually commiting evil acts. Although I do concede that they are more likely to commit such acts.
 

If you ask me, the whole discussion has gone somewhat off-track. Paladins certainly aren't obliged to slay every evil group they come across. They're obliged to take stock of the likely consequences of their actions as well. Slaying the evil king who is the biggest obstacle to Iuz's domination of the Bandit Kingdoms isn't something a paladin ought to do. Similarly, an apprentice paladin ought to have the sense not to challenge Sir Villainous DoBad the epic Blackguard just because he's there.

In a D&D world, I'd expect that somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the sentient creatures are evil. Sure paladins may exist to smite evil but there's so much evil out there that they have to pick and choose which evil to smite. Usually, one of the criteria for the picking is whether or not the paladin actually can smite the evil. Sir Villainous DoBad is on the other side of the kingdom so Sir Hero DoGood can't smite him. Mayor Lecherous Greed of corruption has the trust and confidence of the king, so the paladin needs to think carefully before smiting him. Chet Insurgent, the bandit chief is a wicked man but he doesn't do anything bad in town--and when he does bad things, they're to Iuz's minions in the bandit kingdoms; smiting him would be counterproductive. Greedy Jeff the baker is a thoroughly contemptable man but needs a sound thrashing (which he's likely to get from the cuckold Jeb) rather than killing. Cleo the cutpurse needs dealing with, but catching him would take time and other people can do that without Hero's help. On the other hand, Rapacious Rob, the notorious murderer and outlaw is also in the area and is harming the people the paladin swore to protect so he's the evil Hero DoGood decides to track down and smite.

You'll note that Hero DoGood's decision to smite Rapacious Rob has normative, absolute elements (he's evil, he's an outlaw, he's a murderer and deserves death) as well as prudential elements (unlike Sir Villainous DoBad, he's easy to get to and defeating him is within Sir DoGood's ability), some consequential considerations (unlike Chet Insurgent, killing Rapacious Rob won't allow Iuz's military more space to regroup), and considerations of group identity/personal commitment (Rapacious Rob attacked citizens of a town to which Hero DoGood is personally connected. . . and whose citizens have more of a rightful claim to his loyalty and protection than those Sir Villainous DoBad is harming for instance).

Also, when Hero DoGood decides to go after Rapacious Rob, he won't simply tell his companions, "sorry, I know we had to work with Rob to escape the Mind Flayer but he's evil so I have to kill him" and set out to pursue Rob on his own. (Some paladins try to be the Lone Ranger and sometimes they succeed, but wiser paladins get help). Instead, Hero explains why Rob is a threat and if his companions don't agree, he'll go to the town and round up a posse to take Rob down. After all, Hero may be strong enough to defeat Rob or even to defeat Rob and a few accomplices if he gets lucky but if he wants to be sure to defeat Rob and his bandit gang, he'll need help.

There shouldn't be any question of "must I kill them because they're evil"? At least a third of the world is evil (IMO and IMC, it's more like most of the world). Instead, the question should be, "which evil should I smite and why?" If anyone has played the Neverwinter Nights module, "Tallanvor's Pride", I think it is a pretty good exploration of that question--or at least a necessary caution to the "evil=smite" approach.

jgbrowning said:
But it most definitely makes one ask the following question.

Can someone be evil without ever doing an evil action?

If your answer is no, why does the paladin have to wait until another evil action is performed before he can take action against a human, and would he have to wait if it was against an Ogre? (IE. if he saw an ogre on the street and it detected as evil, would he be required to wait until the ogre did something evil?)

If your answer is yes, how does one become evil without doing evil?

To answer the question--because it's a good one--yes, one can become evil without actually doing evil. I think the character in Crime and Punishment is a very good example of this. He begins as a neutral--or possibly even good--character with an admiration for the so-called great men or geniuses whom he supposes to be above the realm of "common" morality. As his circumstances decline, he begins to imagine how he would act if he were one of them. Then he begins to toy with the idea of actually acting that way. By the time he's bought the hatchet and is on his way to kill the landlady, I'd say he's evil even though he hasn't done anything. If a carriage had run him over on the street when he was on his way to kill the landlady, he'd still have been evil when he died.

Intent often preceeds action and people are culpable not just for what they actually do but also for what they try to do. From a moral point of view, a rapist doesn't become less vile just because no vulnerable women jogged down the dark trail where he was lying in wait. IRL, of course, there's always the question of whether or not someone would really have done the evil action or whether their conscience would have prevented them at the last moment. The fiction of D&D, however, can allow paladins to tell the difference between the Crime and Punishment character who really will commit murder and Tom Cruise's character from Minority Report who plans to murder the man he thinks to be his son's kidnapper but doesn't.*

In any event, the question is somewhat beside the point. The question that ought to preceed it is this: can someone be evil without meriting death as a matter of earthly crime and punishment?

*OK, so he is actually holding the gun but as I recall, he didn't actually pull the trigger--someone else does.
 

Aristotle said:
This would have to be where you and I disagree (and I'm ok with that). I believe that a person is often evil long before performing an evil act. In my eyes, your choice to be good or evil lies just as much in your soul as it does in your deeds.

To a point I agree, in order to really do an evil action, as opposed to an honest mistake, one must have "evil thoughts" before performing an evil act.

The difference (once again, this is my opinion) is not that a good character wrestles his demons while a bad character gives in to them, so much as a good character acknowledges they are wrong and repents them and an evil character entertains and desires them. The fact that the character never actually performed the evil action might not signal that he has beaten back his demons. It might simply indicate he never found the oportunity to release them. Don't mistake calculated intelligence for self-control and valor.

And here I must seriously caution you in this assumption. For as you tell me to not mistake calculated intelligence for self-control and valor, i'm also telling you to not mistake self control and valor for calculated intelligence. :)

Another problem is how far in the future or in the past does the spell "know" to go to give the "evil" discriptor? What about the peasant that next year gets captured and tortured so much that he's broken and becomes evil? But the next year he gets captured by the good guys and rehabilitated. But at the end of his life he loses his grip and dwells to much on his terrors and slips back into evil. When does he detect as evil?

So, my answer to your original question is yes. I believe someone can be evil without ever actually commiting evil acts. Although I do concede that they are more likely to commit such acts.

This is why I'm saying that thought alone doesn't work, it takes action. How many "evil thoughts" are required to make one evil. I know I had more than my fair share of them when I was younger, was I evil then?

Action and thought, are required to be evil, because action without "evil thought" is just a mistake, a terrible mistake, but thought without action is simply neutrality because there is no "hurting, oppressing, and killing others" (PHB3.5 104). There's no harm done, and harm, in all its many forms, is the root of evil.

joe b.
 

One thing that occurs to me as I read this thread: What exactly is it that HAPPENS when a Paladin detects evil? Do his enemies "glow red"? Is he nauseated? Or does he just "have a feeling" about somebody or a group of people. I had never really thought about this before, but it seems to me that "detect evil" is really just a feeling that the Paladin gets, which can be focused or honed, but is not the same thing as "radar" or something (although I recognize the rules allow for this use).

What does the Paladin say if, detecting evil on the merchant walking down the street, he arrests him and brings him to the town guard, or even kills him? "Well, I just had a bad feeling about him"? Or how about: "Well, you see, I've been chosen by my God to smite evil, and given this divine gift. This guy gave me the willies, and so I smote him."

When I've played a paladin in the past, I've taken this ability for granted as just an automatic excuse, not necessarily to kill, but definitely ot ENFORCE. I'll have to give it some more thought before the next time I play.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
To answer the question--because it's a good one--yes, one can become evil without actually doing evil. I think the character in Crime and Punishment is a very good example of this. He begins as a neutral--or possibly even good--character with an admiration for the so-called great men or geniuses whom he supposes to be above the realm of "common" morality. As his circumstances decline, he begins to imagine how he would act if he were one of them. Then he begins to toy with the idea of actually acting that way. By the time he's bought the hatchet and is on his way to kill the landlady, I'd say he's evil even though he hasn't done anything. If a carriage had run him over on the street when he was on his way to kill the landlady, he'd still have been evil when he died.

Good example, but it also proves my point fairly well. If a carriage had run him over, on the street, he never would have had the opportunity to repent outside the old lady's door, cementing his choice for redemption.

If you don't make action a requirement for evil (along with evil thoughts), you destroy the posibility of redemption fo r those who are having evil thoughts.

Intent often preceeds action and people are culpable not just for what they actually do but also for what they try to do. From a moral point of view, a rapist doesn't become less vile just because no vulnerable women jogged down the dark trail where he was lying in wait.

Again, until he does something, one cannot say he is evil, for the opportunity may present itself and he may choose to do the right thing. This is the only real way of struggly with internal demons. Some people do it quickly, some slowly. Some act out parts only in their head, some go so far as to actually hide in the bushes.

Unless your detect evil spell predicts the future, this man (if he has done nothing previously evil) cannot be determined as evil.

IRL, of course, there's always the question of whether or not someone would really have done the evil action or whether their conscience would have prevented them at the last moment. The fiction of D&D, however, can allow paladins to tell the difference between the Crime and Punishment character who really will commit murder and Tom Cruise's character from Minority Report who plans to murder the man he thinks to be his son's kidnapper but doesn't.*

That's a very subjective interpretation based upon the premise that the man is evil already. The spell only detects the actual, the historical, not the potential. What you're postulating isthat the spell wouldn't detect him as evil, if in the future, he doesn't actually axe the poor old lady and repents at her doorstep. I don't see anything, however, in the spell or in the definition of evil as given the PHB that would indicate it is such.

In any event, the question is somewhat beside the point. The question that ought to preceed it is this: can someone be evil without meriting death as a matter of earthly crime and punishment?

Of course! That's one of the things paladins are supposed to do. Help those to redeption who can be redeamed. However, if he choses to slay evil on sight, how can that be bad? For with either of our readings and evil has already occured, or will soon occur, and there's been enough of a history that the evil has taken the precidence in the individuals soul enough to that he detects as such.

joe b.
 

Arravis said:
Kershek, I disagree. In D&D one act can easily bring you to an evil alignment (one act can also bring you to a good alignment, but it's harder to do). You seem to think that evil is something that things are to their core with no hope of change. Once evil, always evil? Seems overly pessemistic and assumes the worst in everyone.
Alignment doesn't usually change quick enough in people you meet in passing in the game world. You judge them by how they have presented themselves.

I really wish I hadn't been taken into an alignment thread. I dislike them with a passion. It's a game. There's good and there's evil with nice little paragraphs that describe both. Follow the guidelines in the game about what they represent and you're happy. No need to relive the movie Minority Report :)

See you guys in another thread....
 

Just a side note...

Just as a side note. I was reading a fantastic story hour (Doc Midnight's Knights of the Silver Quill and Knights of the Spell Forge Keep) in which I felt the whole "detect evil kill on sight" thing was handled very well.

Basically Paladin & Co. enter town in search of ties to an evil cult (RttToEE), they start making connections and finding clues and the Paladin decides to 'Detect Evil.' BAM! The town baker's glowing red like Darth Vader's light saber. So the group formulates the plan to circle the building just incase (s)he decides to split. So they go in, negotiations break down, (s)he tries to make a run for it out the back but, uh-oh; there's a problem, for her(him) at least. There's a 6ft some odd Beacon of Pissed off Righteous Might sittin' outside with a sword that's just been itchin' to lay down some of the lord's special brand of redemption. (S)He's movin' and groovin' and doesn't even see the serious case of holy smack down she has penciled in... One AoO later we've got one headless evil baker and one embodiment of all that is good in the world wiping some rather innocent lookin' blood off of his sword all while surrounded by one angry won't-be-eatin-a-whole-helluva-lotta-bread mob.

We jump forward a whole 10 minutes and we've got the Man Upstair's right hand standin' trial for killin' everybody’s favorite baker.

"Your honor... I am officially 'one mean M Fin' servant of god'*... I've got my Pally Pass with my picture on it and I'm even wearing the standard fullpl-"

"Shut up... Guilty... Next!"

So I changed the writing and dialog a bit... So I couldn't really remember the characters names... In the end the Baker was a part of the cult... So I guess this story works for both sides of the argument... But my point is this, even if you are instructed by your god to kill evil things at all cost, it shouldn't be accepted and taken lightly in a campaign, because who's gonna believe you? But this is all just my opinion.

*Taken from a pretty bad movie... Bonus points to you if you know it...
 

Kershek said:
I really wish I hadn't been taken into an alignment thread. I dislike them with a passion. It's a game. There's good and there's evil with nice little paragraphs that describe both. Follow the guidelines in the game about what they represent and you're happy. No need to relive the movie Minority Report :)

See you guys in another thread....

How very wise of you... I'd take your advice but I enjoy conflict and watching fights like this develop... So to Arravis, Elder-Basilisk, Joe B, Aristotle, d4, and LuYangShih battle on noble warriors... Battle on...
 

e3_jeb: "From Dusk till Dawn" ;)

Kershek has the right idea-

The alignment system is often sighted as a weakness of DnD
Also the alignments are (poorly or not ymmv) defined in the phb





(Re: D&D's implied setting one major thing to keep in mind is this:)....
Taken from page 103 of D&D phb v3.5:
"Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are forces that define the cosmos."

Now Lots of people run things different in their own games or in games they play in but do keep in mind that those are personal changes to the default system and when discussing the (difficult and often debated) issue of alignment
Your personal changes do not apply to the default setting that most people may be using.

I commend Joe for presenting his case so well and I am of the same opinion as he is. In D&D Evil Is Evil. Not just "sin" or having naughty thoughts and thinking about "doing wrong" it means you do truly bad Evil things and most likely Without conscience.

That merchant or baker walking down the street that just detected as evil? That was because he was Sweeny Todd or Jack the Ripper, not just some guy looking at a hot chick and thinking "man I'd like to hit it with her" while also thinking "if only (my competitor's name here) was dead..I could kill him...my business would be so much better and then I'd be filthy rich and smoke all the weed I want and own a dragon love slave."

Orcs tend to be evil as a race because as a race they are rapists and murderers By the default setting. In your own campaign versions you can run it different, but as the system stands in print this is how things are. Kobolds in the MM are presented as...."(Usually Lawful evil)..."with cowardly and sadistic tendencies. .... not averse to eating intelligent beings ... (prisoners) occasionally sell some as slaves ....Their nasty habits and distrust of most other beings mean that they have many enemies. ...The patron deity ... despises all living creatures except kobolds."

Hey, feel free to run them different. D&D really does need to be run to you and your group’s tastes. When I ran "Sunless" I ran most of the kobold clan as being much more neutrally inclined, including Meepo. He really does come off the best as a neutral party, Yusdrayl (Imho) is best used as Lawful evil."


I enjoy playing some morality in my game to make things dramatic, but sometimes you have to be careful to not over do it and bog the game down in difficult philosophical issues. If you want to use D&D as a catalyst for philosophical discussion that's great if it is fun for you. Mostly wd just like to goof off and kick on some bad guys heads. YMMV

Keep up the good work Joe! ;)

BTW it's always "fun" to watch these frequent My Paladin" threads to into a Huge debate over alignment and evil and the apparently very difficult to agree upon Paladin code of behavior!! :D


ok I've said my peace, back to the fun!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
 

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