Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

WizarDru said:
I'm curious, what alignment would you assign to Tony Soprano?

I'd say LE - he seems strongly group-oriented, with a sense of honour (not just in the 'men of honour' sense of 'show me respect or I'll kill you'). He treats women well (by mafia standards). He also lacks empathy and will take out personal frustrations by beating up non-mafia minions, will resort to murder quite frequently, etc. I do use tendencies so I'd rate him LE with weak True-Neutral tendencies. Scrooge would be LE with strong Lawful-Neutral tendencies at the start, LG at the end. Scrooge is much more Lawful than Evil, Tony is more Evil than Lawful.
 

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S'mon said:
I'd say LE - he seems strongly group-oriented, with a sense of honour (not just in the 'men of honour' sense of 'show me respect or I'll kill you'). He treats women well (by mafia standards). He also lacks empathy and will take out personal frustrations by beating up non-mafia minions, will resort to murder quite frequently, etc. I do use tendencies so I'd rate him LE with weak True-Neutral tendencies. Scrooge would be LE with strong Lawful-Neutral tendencies at the start, LG at the end. Scrooge is much more Lawful than Evil, Tony is more Evil than Lawful.
Under the D&D alignment system, I'd probably agree with you. The reason I asked LYS was because I was curious on his take, since he believed that evil characters felt no remorse or regret, and Tony Soprano clearly does...that he, in fact, is burdened by his remorse and regret. But the Sopranos universe is one filled with dark greys, not really well suited to the alignment system to begin with. An intellectual exercise, like the rest of the thread.

My main contention is that there is a good deal of wiggle room within each alignment, long before 'crossing over' occurs. RttToEE has an alcoholic paladin, for example, who is in constant danger of losing his paladinhood, but doesn't. LG characters can still be jerks, for example, and CE characters can do nice things....but it doesn't change their fundemental character. You can be an atagonist in a story without being a villain, and vice-versa. Having an alignment doesn't mean being the extreme example of it at all times, IMHO.
 

WizarDru said:
Having an alignment doesn't mean being the extreme example of it at all times, IMHO.

Definitely - 1e used special words for the 4 extreme cases:

LG - Saintly
CG - Beatific
LE - Diabolical
CE - Demoniacal
 

WizarDru said:
Under the D&D alignment system, I'd probably agree with you. The reason I asked LYS was because I was curious on his take, since he believed that evil characters felt no remorse or regret, and Tony Soprano clearly does...that he, in fact, is burdened by his remorse and regret.

SHOOTY: Now see here, guy! You're not dealing with any dumb two-bit trigger-pumping morons with low hairlines, little piggy eyes and no conversation, we're a couple of intelligent caring guys that you'd probably quite like if you met us socially! I don't go around gratuitously shooting people and then bragging about it afterwards in seedy space-rangers bars, like some cops I could mention! I go around shooting people gratuitously and then I agonize about it afterwards for hours to my girlfriend!

BANG BANG: And I write novels! Though I haven't had any of them published yet, so I better warn you, I'm in a _meeeean_ mood!

FORD PREFECT: Who are these guys?

ZAPHOD: Dunno, I think I preferred it when they were shooting.

But the Sopranos universe is one filled with dark greys, not really well suited to the alignment system to begin with.

Awww.

An intellectual exercise, like the rest of the thread.

IYKWIM,AITYD
 





Darklone said:
If you know what I mean, arses in the yard doze?
If you know what I mean, and I think you do.

As in:
I'm doing a mental exercise right now, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
I'm rotating the tires right now, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
I'm taking an Attack of Opportunity, if you know what I mean, and I think you do. [nudge nudge wink wink]

But we've tread the 'D&D terms that sound dirty' path in another thread, already. :D
 

Arravis and D4:

So what? D&D is not supposed to model real life. In the D&D system, Evil is a real and tangible force, as is Good, and to a lesser extent Law and Chaos as well. In addition, just because you can understand a villians motivations doesn't mean you should forgive them for the suffering they cause. As for the Kobolds, as mentioned, they simply have not had the capacity to harm the town yet. Once Calcryx begins to grow in power, or when the goblins are removed, the likelihood of them threatening the town grows exponentially. Given their proven Evil natures, it is the Paladins duty to eliminate them.

Paladins have Diplomacy so they can be leaders, not social workers. Heal and Lay on Hands is for saving comrades fighting against Evil If a Paladin starts using those abilities to save evil creatures, he is acting against alignment in all but the most extreme circumstances.

S'mon and Wizardru:

Actually, I think that plenty of people and creatures would fall under my definition of Evil in a D&D world. Perhaps you could give an example of a character that would be Evil by your definition, and not mine. We seem to have reached an impasse on Scrooge. Perhaps you can use NE or CE creature who is less than what my view terms them as, since LE is the least reprehensible of the Evil alignments, simply because it is selective Evil.

I do not think the Paladin has violated the Lawful section of his alignment. He made a temporary truce with the Kobolds, and now after having completed his primary mission has to decide what to do about them. He has analyzed the situation and their inherent natures, and is taking action based on that. He plans on confronting Yusadryl openly, and only if she refuses to acede to the neccessary actions he must take in regards to the Dragon will he attack her and her tribe.
 

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