Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[Green Knight]

Just to clarify - of course Churchill was an early advocate of rearmament _to deter Nazi aggression_ - he didn't advocate a preemptive attack on Germany!

Didn't want to continue the off-topic discussion, but since when would a pre-emptive attack on Germany have been a bad thing? Wouldn't that have been preferable to letting the Jewish people get tertiated?

 

[S'mon]

What exactly do you view Detect Evil as, anyway? To me, it is a divinely granted gift from the Paladins deity that allows him to peer into ones very soul. Given that, if a creature detects as Evil, I would say the Paladin has every right, by the book, to slay them, especially if they pose a threat to nearby Oakhurst. If you run it differently, fine, but by the book I am correct.

Well, I use the 1e/2e approach that it basically only detects creatures with the Evil descriptor or at least steeped in evil (eg cleric of Nerull level 8+), such that they radiate evilness that can be picked up by the paladin's passive detector array. I treat the power as a sixth sense akin to sight, not as a radar/sonar active detector. It detects creatures and objects that are so evil, they _radiate_ evil. It thus doesn't detect the evil that lies hidden within (pretty much all) men's souls - almost everyone has _some_ evil in their hearts, and a Paladin who killed on that basis would resemble Judge Death more than Judge Dredd IMO.

 

[S'mon]

Didn't want to continue the off-topic discussion, but since when would a pre-emptive attack on Germany have been a bad thing? Wouldn't that have been preferable to letting the Jewish people get tertiated?

Well the Nazis didn't start systematically exterminating the Jews until at least 1940, and didn't have a formal genocide policy until 1942. Whether a pre-emptive attack on Germany (in 1933) would have been a good thing or not, I really don't know. Certainly history, and Germany today, would be very different.

 

[Arravis]

Green Knight, one of the questions posed earlier was the issue of weather evil alignment can only be gained via action or via thought. A group of kobolds who have never done anyone any wrong seem to still have the evil alignment, though they've not actually done anything to deserve it. Would their deaths be justified? This is what seems to be the case with the kobolds in the Sunless Citadel.

LuYangShih wrote "What exactly do you view Detect Evil as, anyway?"
I don't view it as the the paladin's god giving his servant some all-knowing divine insight... I only see it as the paladin's god giving his servant a spell like ability. Nothing more.

 

[jgbrowning]

Green Knight, one of the questions posed earlier was the issue of weather evil alignment can only be gained via action or via thought. A group of kobolds who have never done anyone any wrong seem to still have the evil alignment, though they've not actually done anything to deserve it. Would their deaths be justified? This is what seems to be the case with the kobolds in the Sunless Citadel.

I just always viewed it as if the kobolds just hadn't done anything evil to the humans, not that they hadn't done anything evil.

joe b.

 

[Arravis]

As I remember there's no evidence either way (other then eating goblin prisoners, boy, that's another can of worms, lol). Either way though, simply detecting evil shouldn't be enough to justify a death sentence. There needs to be evidence of evil action, not just it simply showing up in a low level spell like ability.

 

[LuYangShih]

That is evidence of evil. In fact, it is irrefutable proof of evil. That is the whole point of the spell. It can be fooled, but that is obviously not the case here. They are evil humanoids who pose a definite threat to a nearby community of innocents. It is the Paladins duty to see that they do not have a chance to harm those people.

 

[Arravis]

The point isn't that they might or might not be evil, but it is that they might not be worthy of an instant death sentence (though you also have to take into account the spell isn't infallible). Lots of people would qualify for "evil" alignment without actually doing something worthy of death. IE: the example that has been given many times earlier of Scrooge or some evil miser. Would an evil greedy miser be killed on sight by your paladin?

 

[LuYangShih]

The point isn't that they might or might not be evil, but it is that they might not be worthy of an instant death sentence (though you also have to take into account the spell isn't infallible). Lots of people would qualify for "evil" alignment without actually doing something worthy of death. IE: the example that has been given many times earlier of Scrooge or some evil miser. Would an evil greedy miser be killed on sight by your paladin?

I already answered this question earlier. We are going about in circles here. To me, the bottom line is the Kobolds represent a threat to the town of Oakhurst, which coupled with their evil alignment demands the Paladin take action against them. The Paladins first duty in almost every case is to protect the innocent, and by leaving those Kobolds alive he is putting innocents at risk. As such, the Kobolds should be eliminated.

 

[LuYangShih]

By the way Trainz, what do the rest of the PCs think of the situation? I would make sure I have their support before taking action, as the last thing you want is the Rogue sticking a sword in your back when you make your move.