Paladins in Sunless Citadel (UPDATE)

[Arravis]

Do you mean where you said that if they are of an evil alignment they have to have done harm? I don't see how that's possible if a kobold is born evil... has a baby kobold done harm to anyone? Have the kobolds in the Sunless Citadel done harm to anyone? Just seems to me that your paladin would rather see pretty much everyone dead cause they "might" one day, just possibly, harm an innocent.

Btw, I was looking over the SRD and looked up Lawful Evil, it mentions this: "He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion"; "He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank." Sounds alot like the paladin you're promoting.

 

[LuYangShih]

I could just as easily say your stance would lead to never judging evil and taking action against it until it was too late, because they "might", one day, turn out good. In any case, I question why one would leave clearly evil creatures to their own machinations until given the chance to commit grave harm against innocent creatures. Because that seems to be what you are recommending this Paladin do.


PS

If an infant Kobold detected as Evil, I would view it as in game qualification of the entire race of Kobolds being born Evil. If that was the case, Kobolds should then be treated no differently than Demons or Devils.

 

[LuYangShih]

Deleted.

 

[Kershek]

p.s.: I've never seen Minority Report, looked pretty droll.... it deals with this issue I take it?

Droll means funny - is that what you meant? You should watch it. The movie is pretty good. http://imdb.com/title/tt0181689/

 

[LuYangShih]

Deleted.

 

[Trainz]

By the way Trainz, what do the rest of the PCs think of the situation? I would make sure I have their support before taking action, as the last thing you want is the Rogue sticking a sword in your back when you make your move.

Oh, the PC's don't know yet, but rest assured I intend to explain everything to them before making my move.

I wouldn't be a good example otherwise. And Paladins lead by example.

I really like RP'ing a Paladin. It's a nice challenge.

 

[WizarDru]

I think one of the sources of disagreement may be over the nature of alignment itself. I get the sense that LuYangShih may view alignment as a state of being, versus Arravis, who views it as a status.

Put another way, Lu sees alignment as what you are, Arravis as what you become. That fuels the argument and difference of opinion, is the lack of common reference for the issues behind the argument.

For myself, I see alginment following actions, so I agree and disagree with both vantage points. Someone who is evil has done things to make him so, according to the PHB. Alignment reflects his behaviors and actions.

In the case above, someone mentions a man planning on killing his landlady and being killed by a street car before doing so, and thus the ridiculous extreme that if only actions make you evil, then he can't be evil. Clearly, actions alone don't cut it. But he did accept that he was going to kill his landlady, planned it (however undetailed) and began enacting a plan to do it. He had commited an evil act, namely accepting that killing for personal pleasure or gain was a valid choice for him, personally.

Now again, the issue arises about a Paladin's duty. Well, again, we have to decide, who is a paladin and what are his duties? If he's a skullbreaker for his diety, does his diety condone wanton slaughter?

Trainz sounds like he's going to have his paladin infom the rest of the party. Wise move, for two reasons: one, he's putting them in serious (potentially lethal) peril for his code (without firm knowledge that he's serving the greater good) and also for letting the players know.

Note that I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, because that varies from game to game. If the paladin is aware of poor Erky, shackled and ready to be boiled, though, it becomes much easier. The goblins are a different case, however.

 

[Arravis]

LuYangShih:
I think we have to judge people on what they do, not just what they think about doing. As was said earlier... some of us have had some pretty evil thoughts we've never acted on. Does that make us worthy to be killed by a paladin? Also, I don't see how you assume that the kobolds would ever have an impact on the town. Seems merely like a rationalization. On the issue of evil being something you're born with or that you learn... if we assume that evil is something you're not born with but something that you become (Demons and Devils aren't "born" evil, they commited acts of hineous evil in their previous life, it's something they've earned), then you can't just assume that the kobolds have commited evil acts deserving of death. Have they been selfish and callous... probably, does that mean they should be slaughtered? I'd say no.

Kershek:
I meant droll in a fluffy way... not something serious, just sci-fy eye-candy. Anyway... might be something I rent . Thanks for the recommendation.

WizarDru:
I think you're exactly right on why we seem unable to find a common ground. Very astute .
To me, alignment is something you earn. Good or bad, you've worked hard to be the alignment you are. I don't view it as something that just "happens" to you. I see alignments as something that's dynamic, not static. People (and creatures) change over their lifetimes depending on their circumstances. Some towards good, some towards evil. By killing someone you remove any hope of redemption, any hope of change. You remove all their choices and remove their most basic freedom, that of life. Yes, somethings are deserving of this perhaps... but it's something that should be done only in the most dire of circumstances and be taken with the seriousness it deserves. Anyway... good post overall .

 

[Kershek]

Arravis: I think you would like it. It talks about whether you can apprehend, judge, and sentence a man before he has done a bad deed, and what if you're wrong. It has similarities to Logan's Run as well.

 

[Aristotle]

I think Trainz has probably come to an acceptable conclusion. Who cares if it is right. It smacks of good role playing, and presents an incredibly interesting string for further role playing.

"The paladin walks into the town. Meepo, his kobold squire, walking behind him. The townspeople look on in utter disbelief." Heh... if I were your DM I might even let Meepo take a level or two of paladin later on in his career. Now THAT would be interesting.

As far as the discussion goes. I think folks have to agree to disagree. Both parties have valid points, and in the end I think it is best for most players thinking of running a paladin ask their respective DM how they view alignment, and what they feel the paladins duty is.

Of course... slaying the kobolds would be for pure role playing reasons... as you won't be getting XP for killing the majority of them.