Paladins, Priests of Demogorgon, Mercy and Revenge! A Paladin and Costly Choices.

SHARK

First Post
Greetings!

Well, a dramatic situation occurred recently in one of my campaigns. The group is epic level, and contains 15 or so characters that belong to the players, and about 10 elite characters played by myself; then there are about 4-6 cohorts for each player character, and hundreds of followers. There is a huge war going on in the land of Galleran, which is fighting against the Vallorean Empire.

The group forms a sort of spin-off mini-campaign of cohorts of the major characters, and is composed of the following:

(1) (Chris); Vallian Nebbethar; M; Human/Half-Celestial; Paladin 20/Divine Emissary 20
(2) (Chris); Sarjanus Khaeben; M; Vallorean; Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Religious Leader 10
(3) (Chris); Elledain; M; High Elf; Fighter 20/Ranger 20
(4) (Adam); Ghaldren; M; Dwarf; Rogue 10/Dungeon Delver 10/Fighter 10
(5) (Adam); Draethon; M; Minotaur; Wizard 30
(6) (Adam); Valladorn; M; Human; Barbarian 20/Ranger 10
(7) (Chrissy); Dressella; F; High Elf; Druid 30/Animal Lord 10
(8) (Chrissy); Isabelle DeMalray; F; Human; Wizard 30
(9) (Chrissy); Khemarna; F; Hippopotamus Humanoid; Cleric 20/Fighter 10
(10) (NPC); Mardranna; F; Human/Half-Elemental (Air); Fighter 20/Cleric 20
(11) (NPC); Therendil; M; High-Elf/Half-Elemental (Air); Fighter 20/Ranger 20
(12) (NPC); Zheron; M; Lion-Humanoid/Half-Celestial; Rogue 10/Fighter 20/Cleric 10
(13) (Amy); Dhareena; F; High-Elf; Wizard 30
(14) (Amy); Saebannu; F; Halfling; Rogue 20/Thief-Acrobat 10
(15) (Amy); Neebah; F; Human/Half-Elemental (Earth); Fighter 30

There are additional members of the group, though they were currently off on a different mission.

The group has been involved with operations in the local area, and recently, has encountered a long-standing group of villains, led by Tharnor, an Ogre Mage/Half-Fiend Cleric/Thrall of Demogorgon and Marlu, an Ogre Mage/Half-Elemental (Air) Wizard/Rogue/Thrall of Demogorgon. The group has been searching for the headquarters of a demonic cult, and has finally managed to find it. The group is also searching for an ancient holy artifact, the “Orb of Darranna”. The group has several thousand troops with them, and has made raids against the enemy bases and encampments for several weeks while preparing for a thorough assault. During these operations, Mardranna was captured by the demonic forces and taken deep into the dark mountain fortress.

The group returned to their base camp and prepared for a rescue operation. Forces had to be hastily organized, and supplies thrown together before the group set out the following dawn. Increasingly, powerful enemy forces harassed the group until they needed to bring in reinforcements. Gradually, as the battle developed, the group chose to take advantage of the growing battle, with savage, intense casualties on both sides, and make their attempt at infiltrating the dark fortress.

The group struggled for several days before unleashing death and wrath upon the forces of evil! As elite Aassimar soldiers poured into the fortress, supported by Lammasu and Lawful Good Cloud Giants, the forces of darkness began to retreat, step by step. The enemy forces were fighting savagely, and as the fireballs fell and lightning crackled, the group burst into a great chamber deep within the great fortress, and beheld a horrid spectacle:

Tharnor and Marlu had sacrificed 16 virgin women in some bizarre ritual, and Marlu held the last two sacrificial victims imprisoned within a wicker cage, suspended by a long chain over a large pool of bubbling molten steel. Marlu was reading from some dark scroll, and shimmering runes of purple fire were traced in the air as if by some unseen hand. By this time, Vallian had managed to fight through hordes of baboon-headed beastmen and half-dragon lizardmen, and crazed, black-robed warrior-priests of Demogorgon, and had engaged in desperate combat with Tharnor; before Tharnor summoned Mardranna to his grasp, ready to be sacrificed. A glowing nimbus of dread purple fire seemed to dance across Tharnor’s hand, held inches from Mardranna’s face. Tharnor was possessed of supernatural speed and smoothness in his actions and always seemed to be just one step ahead of Vallian. Now, as Tharnor held Mardranna tightly, Vallian struck the dark priest a terrible blow with his flaming holy sword, and Tharnor retreated from the raining punishment that Vallian dished out in a glittering explosion of rage. Vallian raised his mighty blade high, ready for the final round of combat, heaving his chest, and chanting prayers to his righteous and holy god, when Tharnor shouted out, demonic joy infusing his voice, “Behold, the innocents shall die!” Mardranna shrieked “No!” and gazed beyond Vallian’s side across the great chamber. Vallian turned, and saw that Marlu held the chains in one powerful fist, ready to release them, and send the last wicker cage with two innocent, 16-year old girls, naked and prostrate, screaming into a horrifying death, and completing the dark ritual that they had begun.

Vallian thought for a moment, in the seconds frozen in a seeming eternity of awful agony and pain of the unknown, as well as the terrors of that which is known far to well. He, as well as Mardranna, were champions and soldiers, pledged to fight and die against the forces of darkness. The two innocent children, screaming in terror while held trapped in the wicker cage, never signed up for war or to be sacrificed to a demon prince. They were dragged, screaming from their homes, to be slaughtered in some obscene orgy of blood and debauchery in honor of the terrible Demogorgon. Finally, Vallian surmised that should the evil ritual be completed, some terrible and dread thing would be accomplished, and many more would die. Wickedness and dark power would rise in the world in some manner, and the forces of darkness would be triumphant, and many other good people would be harvested in the slaughter.

Vallian gazed at his love, his wife Mardranna, and looked up at Tharnor. Tharnor spoke; “Retreat, and I shall spare your beautiful wife, and Marlu won’t send the children plunging to a burning death! Or, take your revenge! Plunge your hungry sword into my chest, and taste the fruit of victory! Go ahead! Your sword hungers to taste my flesh, does it not?” Smiling wickedly, Tharnor knew the turmoil that Vallian was going through in the brief moments of time, with the sound of his troops fighting in the background, and the beastmen howling and screeching as they died.

Vallian backed away, and said “Very well. Release my wife and the children, and you and Marlu may go free.”

In a flash, Tharnor jerked Mardranna by his side, and stepped onto a teleportation platform, Mardranna disappearing along with Tharnor in a shimmering pillar of silver light. Vallian turned to look at Marlu, and she exclaimed in mock dismay at the chains slipping from her hand, and she then flew over to the teleportation platform, and vanished. Meanwhile, the wicker cage holding the two innocent children plunged into the pit towards the bubbling pool of molten steel, with the girls screaming as they fell.

Vallian ran and leaped for the chains dangling from the winch, desperately trying to catch the chains and stop the girl’s fall, but he arrived too late, to his horror.

The girls screamed and died in agony as the molten steel consumed them. Their screams echoed throughout the great chamber, followed by a terrible silence. Vallian lay there gasping, his fists balled in rage, and his heart heavy with sorrow for his beautiful wife, Mardranna, who now was still in the hands of a desperate and wicked enemy.

Below Vallian, in the deeps of the shimmering pit, the sacrifice was part of an ancient ritual that would release the magic seals that imprisoned the dread Abomination, Drethennar. However, Vallian knew none of this. He merely suspected that the ritual would accomplish some evil deed, though he knew not the details.

Meanwhile, the forces of Good continued to counter-attack, and aassimar soldiers poured into the deeps of the fortress, and the rest of the group arrived at the great chamber where Vallian had found Mardranna. Gradually, Vallian and the rest of the group cleared the fortress, and had it refortified and equipped with righteous Vallorean troops. During the next few days, however, the completed ritual became all too apparent.

Drethennar slaughtered several hundred troops in rapid succession, before escaping the fortress into the wider world. The group worked out that some horrible, powerful monster had escaped an ancient prison, though they remained largely ignorant of the true nature of the creature that had escaped. Vallian attended funeral services for the hundreds of his troops that had been slaughtered by the creature. The group was getting grim, and highly determined. Their carefree attitudes and pleasant demeanor of past days was draining away before the blood and terror of battle, but especially from the gnawing feelings from being defeated, from failure. It had been quite some time since the group had been defeated in anything, and here it was a bitter pill to swallow down after being defeated not merely once, but in several occasions in a row. The group had failed to rescue Mardranna; the group had failed to kill Tharnor and Marlu; the group had failed in stopping the evil ritual; sixteen innocent virgin girls had been sacrificed for the unholy ritual; some horrible and dread monster had been freed from its ancient prison, and then proceeded to slaughter several hundred elite troops before making its escape into the wider world, unknowing of its power, and no doubt naked before its terrible might; the group was feeling frustrated, incompetent, and burning for revenge at their failure, but also at their humiliation. The group began making new plans to bring judgment to their enemy.

So, do you all think that Vallian, (the Human/Half-Celestial, Paladin 20/Divine Emissary 20) did the right thing? Should he have plunged his holy sword into Tharnor, and rescue his wife? Killing Tharnor would have been a terrible blow to the forces of evil, and his wife would be safe by his side. Then again, there was a chance that he could have crossed the blood-spattered stairway to reach the oiled chains and stop their fall, but he was too slow, ran out of time, and failed his Balance check. Nonetheless, it was still possible for him to have defeated the evil ritual, and save the last two virgin girls from a terrifying death. What do you think?

Part II: A Victory of Ashes and Sackcloth

The group counter-attacked, and tracked down Tharnor several months later. In a savage struggle, Vallian rescued his wife, Mardranna, and had Tharnor at his mercy. Tharnor surrendered, and pledged to be an honorable prisoner to be taken in for an honorable and lawful trial. Vallian agreed, and took Tharnor as a prisoner. Marlu had escaped, as well as Drethennar, who had since joined with Tharnor and Marlu, biding his time as he worked on getting familiar with the surroundings, and with his new sense of freedom.

Vallian and the rest of the group escorted Tharnor to the city of Nehben-Khari to stand trial for his crimes. During this journey, Vallian found out that his wife, Mardranna, was several months pregnant. He also discovered that Tharnor had raped Mardranna daily during her imprisonment. On many occasions, Tharnor had allowed Drethennar to plunder her, which he did in terrible sessions that would last through the night as Mardranna was ravished again and again and again. Vallian immediately felt a terrible sense of guilt wash over him, as conflicting emotions tore at him about his choices. He wanted to torture Tharnor right there, but managed to relent and to control himself. The magistrate who presided over Tharnor’s trial judged that Tharnor should be burned at the stake, and killed.

In the deep of the night, Marlu and Drethennar rescued Tharnor from prison. Tharnor escaped, and has since eluded the hand of justice. On their way, however, Tharnor, Drethennar and Marlu infiltrated the magistrate’s house, and sacrificed him and his entire family; his wife, his seven daughters and three sons, his sister-in-law, his brother-in-law, their three children, and 15 servants and bodyguards. Then, a series of Gates were opened, and numerous demons poured through to begin attacking the city while the city slept. Before leaving, Drethennar launched several spells of dread power: Drethennar had prepared for this moment, and proceeded to unleash two Apocalypse From The Sky spells, and brought a rain of death and slaughter upon the city that killed hundreds of thousands of people. The entire city was engulfed within a storm of fire and death. It was in this chaos and destruction, that the three made their escape. The city was thrown into terror and chaos as so many people and animals died instantly, while hundreds of thousands of others moaned and gasped for breath, as the fire fell from the dark clouds gathered over the city. The demons stalked the shadowy, smoky streets, spreading death and terror wherever they went.

In the smoking, shattered ruins that enshrouded the city, the group gathered together by the stable, ready to ride out. The Lord-General had summoned them earlier in the week and had dressed them down for not executing the evil bastard when they had the chance. Now, half the city was in ruins, as well as most towns and villages within a 200-mile radius of the great city. The casualties were horrendous. Over 3,800,000 people were slaughtered, and there were now fortified strongholds within the city filled with demons, and new demonic forces were arriving all the time. In addition, the Galleran insurgents, who have now regathered themselves, and stepped up a new campaign of terror and resistance to the Vallorean occupation, saw the fiery storm that engulfed the city as a portent of doom and judgment against the Valloreans.

The group rode out slowly, reeling from the catastrophe that had befallen the city of Nehben-Khari, and the forces of righteousness. As the group rode through the flame-blackened gates of the city, Vallian mused on the appearance that the child growing in Mardranna’s belly might have. Vallian held the reigns tightly in his fist, and wondered what revenge would taste like.

Well, what do you think? Is Vallian responsible for the fate of the city? Did he behave in the righteous way that paladins should? Did he refuse to “take the easier way” and fulfill his duties in a good and righteous manner? Does the paladin deserve judgment, or praise?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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No,I don't believe your Paladin broke the code with his actions.In the first case,his actions were pure-paladinlike,forgoing vengeance for a,however small,chance to save the innocent children and his wife.In the second case,your paladin acted somewhat EXTREMELY to the letter of the code.This ogre mage has shown himself to be vile,treacherous and untrustworthy to the extreme.Surrendering doesn't just give you immunity to any harm.he was obviously guilty,and if I was the DM I wouldn't stop any paladin who decided to end this fiend's life.If he was dead,then the other bad guys would not wreck the city to rescue him for prison.Of course,since there was another evil cleric,he could ressurect him so...

Leave your paladin be.He may feel some guilt due to the consequences,but there are some situations where even the knight in shining armor can't save you...
 

Damn SHARK! Thats some hardcore stuff there. :)

I think Vallion should be reprimanded for agreeing to accept Tharnor's surrender but other than that I don't think any punishment is due. He couldn't have foreseen Tharnor's escape and the subsequent destruction of the city.

He also was faced with a tough choice in the midst of battle and he hesitated. Perhaps a reprimand is in order, but again it was a tough decision he faced.

However, now that Tharnor has shown that his word is meaningless, and now that he has been sentenced to die, I'd say that its open season on Tharnor. The Lord-General should pretty much issue a standing order to kill on sight. Perhaps even place a bounty on his head.

Also, if in reviewing his rescue from prison, they find any evidence of negligence or dereliction of duty in the soldiers assigned on watch or patrol that night, I think they should be charged and tried.
 

Personally, I think it's a non issue

SHARK said:
So, do you all think that Vallian, (the Human/Half-Celestial, Paladin 20/Divine Emissary 20) did the right thing? Should he have plunged his holy sword into Tharnor, and rescue his wife? Killing Tharnor would have been a terrible blow to the forces of evil, and his wife would be safe by his side. Then again, there was a chance that he could have crossed the blood-spattered stairway to reach the oiled chains and stop their fall, but he was too slow, ran out of time, and failed his Balance check. Nonetheless, it was still possible for him to have defeated the evil ritual, and save the last two virgin girls from a terrifying death. What do you think?

Well, personally, as soon as he started his speech, I'd have stabbed him in the head and called it done. Maybe smited him for good measure. On the other hand, assuming that wasn't an option, I'd have said "Release my wife and the girls and I promise you a fair trial." Unless Tharnor was known for keeping his word, I wouldn't have listened to any deal he offered. That said, I think your paladin did a commendable job. He was put in a pretty bad situation and made a perfectly valid choice.

Part II: A Victory of Ashes and Sackcloth

Is Vallian responsible for the fate of the city?
As a DM I wouldn't hold him responsible for the fate of the city, no. He didn't cast the spells that destroyed it. He didn't pressure Tharnor to cast them, and he didn't aid in Tharnor's escape. Tharnor is responsible for the fate of the city. However, as that character, I would have again smited Tharnor in the face at the earliest opertunity, and then burnt his corpse. So, if I hadn't, and the town had been destoryed, then yes, it would play on my character's concience. All the more reason to smite

Did he behave in the righteous way that paladins should?
I see no circumstances where he ever deviated from it.

Did he refuse to “take the easier way” and fulfill his duties in a good and righteous manner?
Allow me to say "DOOD WTF?!?!?!??!!?!!!?" I think there's a problem in some of these paladin threads. There's the group who insists that killing should be the last option, and that everything should be redeemed, and that everyone plays paladins like killing machines and are hopeless. Then there's the group who says that paladins are evil killing machines, and anyone who says otherwise is hopeless. Then there's the guys complaining about lawful stupid. And finally the whole ridiculous standards that always seem to be set. Would we be seeing this whole thread had Vallian smote Tharnor? I I believe we would, except then we'd see "So my paladin condemned his wife and two innocent virgins to death in order to kill this evil guy. Should I take away his powers?" or "So this evil guy who broke his word to the paladin after being spared whole awaking some aincent Evil, asked the paladin for mercy, but instead was killed. Should I punish him?"

My ire isn't aroused because of you, but rather a long series of these sorts of things. But please, before you even consider needing some sort of punishment, point me to some chaotic Evil act that the paladin did. How about Evil. How about normal evil? The fact is though, both of those situations had me rolling my eyes. There was no easy way out of them. And if none of his actions seemed evil. If nothing he did was for the sake of destroying the lawful and good processes of the land, then I see no fault for the fact that the lemonade he made from the batch of lemons he'd been handed didn't have sugar. He made, in my opinion, far too conservative decisions. But I can't fault him for holding up to a standard that many people think is appropriate.

I personally believe that someone is a paladin because they have soemthing that set them apart. Perhaps it's an innocence of spirit, perhaps it's wisdom, perhaps it's a drive to see evil removed. Regardless, they're a paladin because they have that aspect. They do not have a big handbook that they follow in order to be a paladin. They're a paladin because it's in their nature. Thus, their decisions are right, because it's their nature to make the decisions correctly. So, at the very least, give your player the benifit of the doubt.

Does the paladin deserve judgment, or praise?

At this exact moment? Neither. What he deserves is a warm relaxing bath, a few nice cool beers, a long talk with his spritual advisors, and a vision from his diety to keep the fires burning. That, and his wife definately could use some attention.
 

I was hoping to hear about Paladins of Demogorgon. :(

However, I agree with Thoughtbubble. The Paladin made reasonable choices and should not be punished. But he should definitely smite the bad guys when next he sees them.
 

My opinion, FWIW...

Did Vallian hold any lawful post or authority that would authorize him to pass capital sentence on a known evildoer? If so, while passing up the first chance to execute Tharnor the first time was excusable, his failure to execute the fiend the next time should at the very least be something he should atone for.

Lacking any lawful authority to pass judgement himself, Vallian acted entirely honorably.

Re. the DMing...

Awesome campaign! How many sessions did those events unfurl over? And how was the mass-combat handled?
 

I'm a by the book rules kind of guy on loss of paladin powers, it should only be done when the paladin does an evil act or GROSSLY violates the code of conduct.

Otherwise a DM needs to be upfront and EXPLICIT about what extra conditions are put upon paladins in his campaign so there are no unpleasant surprises for the player on the issue after he has made his class choice.

Q1 evil? no. Gross violation? no.

Tough choice with unknowns and bad consequences either way. He was foolish to step away, giving up his leverage for forcing the ogre mage to release the children, but not evil or grossly violating the code, IMO.

Q2 evil? no. Gross violation? no.

The paladin was foolish not to outright kill the evil priest the second time, but not evil or grossly violating the code.

Of course he will feel bad regardless of whether he loses his powers.
 

Re

So, do you all think that Vallian, (the Human/Half-Celestial, Paladin 20/Divine Emissary 20) did the right thing?
No, Poor judgment on his part. What a fool.

Should he have plunged his holy sword into Tharnor, and rescue his wife?
Yes, cut the head off the cult.

What do you think?
I think he was a fool who lost sight of his true mission. He should have killed Tharnor, the other general. And then immediately tried to rescue the two girls. You should never believe evil, demon worshipping people. His wife should not even have been a concern if his faith was strong.


Well, what do you think?
I think Vallian is weak and should be stripped. He is incapable of carrying out the necessary punishments required for the crimes committed by Tharnor. His god should rebuke him and remove from him all heavenly power. He is too weak to carry it.

Is Vallian responsible for the fate of the city?
Indirectly, yes. You do not grant mercy to one such as Tharnor. He does not deserve it. When Sir Launcelot removed Sir Bruce sans Pit helmet and beheaded him for being merely a rapist, even though the man sued for mercy. Tharnor is far worse than Sir Bruce Sans Pitt, and he should have been killed when the opportunity presented itself. Vallian is an incompetent fool unworthy to wield the heavenly power at his command.

Did he behave in the righteous way that paladins should?
Hell no. Paladins are the swordarm of their god. They are not their to forgive, they are there to dispense justice and their gods wrath. He did neither. Tharnor should be dead. Cast him down for being a fool.

Did he refuse to “take the easier way” and fulfill his duties in a good and righteous manner?
No. Once again, I think he was a fool. And he did not perform as the "swordarm of his god". I find him lacking, and I deem him unworthy to serve his god.

Does the paladin deserve judgment, or praise?
Cast him down. Weak-willed ninny. Makes me sick reading how many people died because Vallian was a fool. Tharnor had already committed crimes that would have gotten him the death sentence many times over, and Vallian couldn't carry out the sentence. He's a Paladin, not a magistrate.

Vallian should pay Shark. He was weak and foolish, and because of it many lives were lost. Cast him down.
 

Greetings!

Hey there Dragonblade! Yeah, it was an intense series of games. I certainly don't set up situations purposely designed to strip the paladin of their abilities, though situations that inspire more reflective moral thinking is always inspiring, and fun, too. The particular situation at hand was certainly difficult, with costs no matter what the paladin decided. Just as in real life, decisions--whether good or bad, right or wrong, have consequences, and this adventure was no exception. As you know, as a DM, I give wide latitude for paladins, their gods, and such interpetations of what it means to be lawful and good, so I have no petty axe to grind. As the DM, I don't especially desire to "punish" the paladin at all--the situation developed more or less as an expression of who the villains were, and are as people, and Vallian--as a character, as well as the player--interact and respond to such situations developed by the villains. This, I think, tends to add drama and excitement to the game more on a moral and dramatic level than merely "how many were killed, and how much gold is there?" kind of thing.

Then again, as a player in my campaigns, you are well versed in how villains and enemies often act in the world of Thandor. Nice guys and wimpy paladins who confuse the world of Thandor with the world of Barney or of the Teletubbies is in for quite an education, heh? Villains in Thandor think nothing of rape, manipulation, hostage-taking, terror, lying, treachery, and all acts designed to bring the reigns of power and dominion into their hands, and crush their opponents to lay prostrate and helpless before their terrible might! That's just the harsh reality, and anyone really--whether paladin or not--who forgets that reality is in for a lot of pain and suffering, and oftentimes an early grave.

It's a grim, brutal world where hope, love, compassion, and other such noble and good virtues flicker like a candle-flame dancing in a dark, stormy night.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Guilt for a Paladin.

I would say that the Paladin bears the guilt of not running fast enough and having a high enough balance check to prevent the chain from falling, the innocents from being sacrificed, and the abomination from being released. The subsequent destruction of the city was caused by the abomination (and presuming the Paladin knows that through divinations), so the Paladin should be haunted by nightmares of his dismal failure.

Likewise, I could see the Paladin bearing the guilt of failing to rescue his wife from the evil monster that took her prisoner and raped her. Again, horrible nightmares.

Whether the character should retain Paladin status, I would leave that up to the player. Does the player think his character is disillusioned now? is the character going to go on a drunken binge and become an alcoholic? does the character think his God has betrayed him? Does the character still have faith that good will triumph? etc.
 

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