Paragon Template ECL?

[Taloras]

Can anyone tell me the ECL for the Paragon Template from Epic Level Handbook? It doesnt say specifically...it has it listed for the paragon mind flayer as 26 (which would make me guess at it being around +11, seeing as a mind flayer is already a +15(8 racial hd, +7 level adjustment)).

 

[Pyrex]

There is no "official" (or "right") answer.

Using various methods, people have calculated that the LA is anywhere between +11 and +30.

The biggest problem is that it doesn't provide a flat boost, it benefits some classes and creatures far more than others.
(Ex: Bbn20 gains far more benefit from the Paragon template than a Wiz20, because the Wiz is crippled by the loss of caster levels)

 

[ruleslawyer]

LA should be evaluated based on the best-possible implementation for the particular race or template, IMHO. On that basis, I'd say that +18 to +20 is reasonable at the least. See my comparison monk thread on the WotC boards:

Paragon Mnk3
Medium humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8 (max)+21+36 (81 hp)
Initiative: +18 (Dex, Superior Initative)
Speed: 120 ft. or 100 ft., depending on interpretation of "triples"
AC: 54 (+10 Wis, +10 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck)
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+12
Attack: Unarmed strike +37
Full Attack: unarmed strike +37 or flurry of blows +35/+35
Damage: 1d6+30
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stunning attack (DC 34)
Special Qualities: fire and cold resistance 10, DR 10/epic, SR 31, fast healing 20, evasion, still mind
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +23, Will +23 (+25 vs. enchantments)
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 30, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 31, Cha 23
Skills: 72 points, +10 competence bonus plus bonuses from improved ability scores (avg. +7 over human monk)
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any two others
Epic Feats: Exceptional Deflection, Superior Initiative

Human Mnk21
Medium outsider (native)
Hit Dice: 21d8 (94 hp)
Initiative: +7 (Dex, Improved Initative)
Speed: 100 ft.
AC: 22 (+5 Wis, +3 Dex, +4 monk)
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+17
Attack: Unarmed strike +17
Full Attack: unarmed strike +17/+12/+7 or greater flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7
Damage: 2d10+2
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stunning attack (DC 25), quivering palm (DC 25)
Special Qualities: improved evasion, still mind, ki strike (lawful, magic, adamantine), slow fall (any), disease and poison immunity, abundant step, timeless body, empty body (21 rounds/day), DR 10/magic, SR 31
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +17 (+19 vs. enchantments)
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8
Skills: 105 points
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, any seven others
Epic Feats: Exceptional Deflection or Improved ki strike

So, the paragon has an AC 32 (count 'em) higher than the human, an attack bonus 20 higher, and does more damage in any round in which it is not possible to make a full attack, even assuming that both characters were to be able to hit the same number of times, which is not the case. (Note that the paragon could take Power Attack as one of his feats and stack the odds even higher in his favor.) Moreover, the paragon isn't exactly looking like he'll go down in one blow; his hit points are nearly as high as the human's, assuming equal point buy! The one advantage that the human has is a wider variety of DR penetration (although the human would need to burn his single epic feat on improved ki strike in order to get the highly useful epic DR penetration, which the paragon gets for free).

The human does have a wider variety of abilities, but the paragon has the advantage of sheer power, nearly automatic initiative, and really useful raw combat abilities such as its DR and fast healing. I'd take the paragon over the human any day, if I had the choice.

 

[Pyrex]

I'm not entirely convinced that Paragon Mnk 3 vs. Mnk 21 is a fair comparison.

Paragon Mnk 20 vs. Mnk 40 would be a more reasonable comparison.

While I agree that you have to look at the worst-case scenario (Out of the base classes, Monk is probably the best synergy to Paragon), the template should be remotely balanced for other cases as well.

Paragon Wiz 3 vs. Wiz 21? Wiz 21 wins.

 

[Taloras]

Ok. I was just wanting to know.....with our epic leve game (ECL 25), we have several people that have ACs in the 70s......im trying to get somethign that will compete with that.......>_<

 

[Brekki]

Since ECLs for creatures with unsusual powers are always higher than their CR. I'd say paragon has an ECL 20 to 25.

 

[Taloras]

The problem im seeing with that is that would up the ecl for the paragon mind flayer a lot as well...its a CR 23, ECL 26. However, a NORMAL mind flayer is an ECL 15.(8 HD + a LA of +7). So if its an ECL of 20-25, shouldnt that be an ECL for the mind flayer paragon of 40?

 

[Palagast]

May I ask what the paragon template does and what book I can find it in?
Thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

The Paragon Template is approx. +25 ECL (without equipment that is).

However, creatures/characters that start with a lower ECL than that will not recieve the full benefit.

eg. A 5th-level monk would be +4 Monk, +1 Equipment (5 Levels), +14.5 Paragon making ECL 19 (WotC CR 13) for a Paragon Monk with only 5th-level equipment.

Adding another +3.4 ECL would allow you to gain an additional 17 levels of equipment making ECL 22 (Paragon 5th-level Monk with 22nd-level Equipment).

 

[Taloras]

Paragon Template gives +15 to all abilities(str, dex, con, int, wis, cha), +10 to all skills, +25 to all attacks, +20 to all melee damage rolls (and thrown weapons), +12 insight bonus to ac, +12 luck bonus to AC, max hit points per hit die, an extra +12 hit points per hit die (so a d12 with a 26 con gives you 12+12+8 for 32 hit points for one level), 3 spell like abilities at 15th caster level, any extra spell like abilities get a +15 to caster level, any special abilities(rend, for example), get a +13 bonus, DR 20/+6, Fire and cold resistance 10, fast healing 20, +10 bonus to all saves, 2 bonus feats.......and thats just what i can remember off the top of my head, as i dont have it in front of me.