Party Ambush!

[kclark]

Okay that's more like the sort of thing I'm looking for. Thing is from what was said it sounded like as an average of all the tables and games many were retreating but on average not many were actually dying. That looks far more reasonable.

I agree. If the rules actually are able to support that groups can realize that they are in over their heads and are able to retreat, then awesome. I rarely am able to determine when we should retreat in 3 e. By the time I think that should run (after a round or two), either the monster needs another hit or two to die or we do.

 

[mudbunny]

If you read Mike Mearls' blog, there is a reason the end encounter was over-powered against the party:

The final encounter involves a big, bad, black dragon, a 4th level solo critter. I put it in there because, basically, a lot of 4e doubters have expressed the belief that characters won't die in 4e. I could've put in something a little easier but I figured, nah, let's show them that PCs can still die.

A 4th level solo vs. a 1st level party is not impossible, but it's a tough fight. Especially as people learn to fight dragons and handle their characters, the rate will go down.

From http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15219634#post15219634

 

[Voss]

So, to prove that characters can die, he set up an almost impossible encounter (very hard if you know what you're doing)? That proves almost nothing.

 

[Lackhand]

So, to prove that characters can die, he set up an almost impossible encounter (very hard if you know what you're doing)? That proves almost nothing.

Your kung-fu is weak!
He set up an encounter with a solo monster 3 levels higher than the party, played it tactically, and proved that a DM who wants to challenge the party nigh unto death can do it without needing to break out the epic monsters.

That's fantastic. Consider an orc (especially with greataxe!) versus the party in 3e; one crit, one dead character. But you don't send in orcs if you don't intend on killing characters; they're minor challenges, to most of us!

So what this demonstrates: DM wants to challenge players, play a game with them = use their level encounters. DM wants to push players, threaten character death = use a monster a few levels higher.

I don't even know if the spread is too narrow. I'd say needing to be 4th level to take that thing on is okay, as it doesn't so much demonstrate an exponential power growth per player, but rather, of the party.

I'm okay with that.

 

[Jhaelen]

So, to prove that characters can die, he set up an almost impossible encounter (very hard if you know what you're doing)?

Even in 3E an encounter with an EL of (party level + 4) is only considered to be 'very difficult'. So the black dragon in question wouldn't even be close to being an 'impossible' encounter in 3E.
For 4E it's probably right at the upper end of a 'challenging' encounter.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Even in 3E an encounter with an EL of (party level + 4) is only considered to be 'very difficult'. So the black dragon in question wouldn't even be close to being an 'impossible' encounter in 3E.
For 4E it's probably right at the upper end of a 'challenging' encounter.

The point isn't that it's impossible, or even that it's a few levels above the party. Mearls put it in to prove the point that, yes, characters can die in 4e. They're not invincible. Sure, if you know what you're up against, go in prepared, and know what its tricks are, you're going to have a better chance of success. That's true with nearly anything, whether you're talking about games, RL warfare, or midterm exams.

I also think a big difference between this encounter and a similar one in 3e is that it takes more time in the game world. This means you get a little more time to measure whether you can really take the thing, or whether it's going to mop the floors with your party. In 3e you'd maybe have a round or two to determine that you're all dead if you stick around, and you have nothing to tell you its health, unless the DM is nice. In 4e I think you'll have a few more rounds to come to the same conclusion, and you have "bloodied" to tell you the halfway point.

 

[Iron Sky]

Been lurking here since I found this site looking for more info on 4E and thought I'd give my 2 cp on this.

From what I understand, you don't even need to look at what level the monster is when picking what the players fight. If you had a list with nothing but monster names, roles, and xp "buy costs," you should be able to put together a balanced encounter (if somewhat implausible in in-game terms: "so, why are the three Pukefire zombies, the Pink Dragon, the Baleen Whale, and 20 Pixie Stickfighter minions all working together again?")

A 600xp fight is a 600xp fight, regardless if that 600xp comes from one level 9 monster or 24 level 1 minions, it's designed to be balanced either way. Encounter-point buy like Warband DND Minatures(as I understand it, never played).

I think of it like my (few, long ago) games of Warhammer 40k I've played. A 500 pt army is a 500 pt army, regarless if that 500 pts is 20 units of cannon-fodder Imperial Guard infantry or Imperial Guard super-tank. Like these minature games, hopefully, ideally, the fight will be balanced regardless of the level of the monster.