Party HP

[the Jester]

What if one pc falls off a cliff and takes enough damage to "drop" two pcs? Can the party decide the guy who fell is not one of the ones to drop?

How do monsters target the pc of their choice? If I have a bad guy who is good against melee fighters that wants to drop the fighter from a distance, it seems like there's no way to do that. The pcs can just always choose to let the least useful pc go down in any given situation. How do I take out the healer? Seems like it's literally impossible under this system.

Also, who decides which pc drops? What if nobody volunteers and the damage was spread pretty evenly?

I am not a fan of this, at least not for a game where you want tactics and decisions to matter in combat.

 

[Umbran]

I can see that. I think theres some interesting mechanics that can be incorporated to provide that tanky feel. Maybe Abilities that provide a chance for a character to avoid being downed when that happens.

Quite possibly. How to work with this depends a bit on whether you are building a system from the ground up, or modifying an existing one.

Trying to apply this scheme to D&D, for example, means you need abilities to get that tanky feel. It probably also calls for a review of what saving throws do - in this scheme, a directed, one target attack spell effectively does damage to everyone. And how do area of effect spells, where some people make saves and others don't, work out?

 

[cowpie]

This system is usually used for groups of NPCs, mass combat, or military units in wargames. For example, in an abstracted combat where 20 knights are battling 50 orcs, roll mass damage for each side, and remove "models" accordingly, to simulate attrition.
Since the players play PCs individually, consequences for taking damage should probably be individually assessed for PCs, based on the decisions made by their individual player.

 

[aramis erak]

Tunnels and Trolls seems to be the initial RPG to use this type of system. Each character and monster rolls a set of dice based on their combat prowess (and spells cast, stuff used, etc.) and adds it to their side's total. The side with the higher total inflicts the difference as damage to the losing group. Spells and missile weapons inflict damage even if the the casting side loses. Damage is split out (in a method that I think has differed a bit by edition) to individuals, where their armor then acts as DR. It's not exactly what the OP was seeking, but similar in concept.

Nope. It's distributed evenly, remainders as desired, in 4th through deluxe, barring GM's allowing Stupid PC Tricks to alter the shares. Which means your fighter has a reason to be making saves to get the damage share size down enough to allow the wizard's armor to be soaking most of it.

What differs is...
... how monster rating foes dice + adds are calculated. 5 RAW is use current, Deluxe RAW is use Original, and notes this as a change.
... how low scores affect combat adds. Deluxe also shifts this from penalties for below 9 to no penalties at all, only bonuses for high.
... how level and attribute gains work (<= 5.5 and >=7.0... noting that 6 is explicitly "your house rules" per Ken St. Andre.) This does impact combat a little, and spellcasting a lot.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

This system is usually used for groups of NPCs, mass combat, or military units in wargames. For example, in an abstracted combat where 20 knights are battling 50 orcs, roll mass damage for each side, and remove "models" accordingly, to simulate attrition.
Since the players play PCs individually, consequences for taking damage should probably be individually assessed for PCs, based on the decisions made by their individual player.

See, this right here is the reason so many players don't like being crew on the same ship during a space battle.

So give 'em each their own ship! Give 'em a bunch, I say!

 

[Crusadius]

It sounds like the idea of a group pool of HP is trying to achieve something where the HP of more robust characters can be used defend the weaker character - narratively the knight throws themselves in front of the wizard to take a blow.

Some versions of Modiphius' 2D20 system have a group pool of Momentum dice that all players add to when they have extra Momentum they cannot immediately spend and all players can use. Perhaps a similar system can be used for an "HP Pool".

 

[pming]

Hiya!

For PC's...not sure if I'd go that route. If I did, I'd have it not be so much "HP's as we know them...'ish", but more along the line of a sort of "Buffer HP" that gets whittled down, and when it does is when individual PC's start taking 'physical damage'. So if a PC Party had 100hp, any "large attacking group/effect" would go towards that first. I'd classify a "large attacking/group or a specific incident with PC's near each other" effect as things like a choking mist, Fireball, swarm of rats, or even a 'dozen goblins', or where the group of PC's are all within "reaching distance" of one another. As long as the Party was near each other (say, no PC greater than X feet away; start with 10' and see how that works) they draw from this PC Party HP.

Individual PC's could, however, take "normal, individual damage" as appropriate; the thief triggers a slicing-blade trap while picking the lock, or the barbarian gets 3 magic missiles cast into his chest from the orc shaman, etc, bypassing the PC Party HP.

Something like that COULD work...but it would have to be explained and worded correctly and given a "believable fiction in the world" as to why. I'd word it with emphasis on the "all within 10'" idea so that it would be assumed that other PC's were looking out for one another and calling out potential attacks, dangers, etc, as well as physically intervening to help...like grabbing the fighters backpack RIGHT before he triggers a covered pit trap (the DM rolls damage, gets 16; the pit is triggered, but the narrative is the ranger right behind the fighter grabs his backpack just as the pit cover drops, the fighter leaning forward at the edge, looking into a deep, dark pit!...saved only because the ranger's quick reactions and perception [PCPHP 100 down to 84 now].

That said...for BAD GUYS, this would work much better. A super hero game called SUPERS! does this with "Mooks and Citizens" mechanic. In short, it's a d6 pool based game, roll, beat a target number; every 6 points of success is a 'success level'. The "group" of mooks have a rating, say, 2D for 10 thugs. That "group" all attack as a group and defend as a group, with the GM and Player describing the narrative. So if they attack the hero, the GM rolls 2D and gets a 6. That's one Success Level. "The thugs pull out chains, bats and lead pipes and attack, swinging wildly with deadly force!"...the PC then rolls whatever defense they want (say, just a simple Reaction to dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge out of the way). If the PC's Reaction score is 3D (pretty good, btw) and gets a 12, that's 2 Success Levels. This means the mooks try their best, but they are no match for the skill of Patches (the Hero)! Patches returns the favour by throwing a bunch of wrenches at his attackers from his Practice Bag. He has 4D in this Power, so he rolls 4D6 and gets 19 (3 Success Levels). The mooks roll their rating of 2D and get 8 (1 Success Level). Try as they might, they are no match for the onslaught of flying wrenches and the group takes 2 damage (Patches 3 SL - 1SL Mooks). This comes off of their 2D rating...reducing it to 0D. Patches stands up, the camera pulls back, and we see Patches standing victorious, with 10 thugs all unconscious or semi-conscious on the flor, moaning and groaning, surrounded by a bunch of wrenches.

That sort of "group HP" works well for the 'bad guys', but for the PC's, well, as I said. It would have to be described the right way and have certain requirements/restrictions. More like a "you can use this HP pool IF...[criteria]". That could be a nice buffer for the squishier PC's in the group.

PS: In case it wasn't obvious... go check out SUPERS! on DriveThru! Even if you never play it, I think it's "vibe" on how to run a collaborative/narrative-sharing type of game is wonderful! DriveThruRPG.com - SUPERS! - The Largest RPG Download Store!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[FrogReaver]

It sounds like the idea of a group pool of HP is trying to achieve something where the HP of more robust characters can be used defend the weaker character - narratively the knight throws themselves in front of the wizard to take a blow.

Some versions of Modiphius' 2D20 system have a group pool of Momentum dice that all players add to when they have extra Momentum they cannot immediately spend and all players can use. Perhaps a similar system can be used for an "HP Pool".

Actually, that's a consequence - the goal is different.

HP has always been an abstraction wherein whatever 'damage' is gets taken until a sufficient threshold has been reached such that there's a consequence. Party HP is no different except it's applied to the party instead of the individual PC.

I guess we could say it's certainly a bit less simulationist than traditional character hp, not that traditional character hp is super simulationist to begin with but it's more so than this - which is probably one reason i'm getting such negative feedback about the proposed mechanic, people have a hard time moving to less simulation.

Except the fictional stories involving multiple characters we know of rarely have a single character heroically taking hit after hit and then dying. Instead, while such a character is being beat up, a single attack downs his ally. The party hp system allows fiction to be produced like this, whereas traditional hp really doesn't.

 

[GMMichael]

I like this party HP idea - it gives PCs incentive to protect their more squishy comrades. It's very 3-musketeers. It could neatly solve the Whack-a-Mole problem if reviving a PC means that character gets back up, but the distance to the next PC-down milestone doesn't change. What I don't like is the idea of watching PCs go down like dominoes, one after another, in each challenging fight.

It requires a perspective change on the ideas of "hits" and "damage," if your game incorporates those names. Normally, it makes no sense for your wizard to take continuous "hits," just to watch the warrior drop like a sack of potatoes at the first incoming attack. However, if the wizard takes damage but it's in the form of "running for his life," then it makes sense that at some point, the warrior will be so concerned with the wizard's well-being that she gets distracted by the wizard's predicament, which opens up the opportunity for a disabling attack on the warrior.

D&D specific: the dual-defenses of HP and AC are less redundant with a party-HP system. HP still says whether you win or lose, and it makes sense that you don't get weaker as you lose HP - because it's not directly tied to you. If you're the one being attacked while at a PC-drops milestone, it's your AC that prevents you from being the unlucky party member, not your HP.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd consider a system with this:

* Everyone gets two actions per turn. No more than one action can deal damage. The other can be used to inflict a condition, aid an ally, cast a non-damaging spell, etc.

* The party has HP, which get depleted first.

* Each PC has their own HP, which gets depleted if the party HP is empty.

* You cannot use the party HP pool if you have no allies within 'area of influence.' Typically that's 30 feet at 1st level, but it goes up at higher level. There might also be a way to plan tactics so you can still count as a party for the first X rounds of combat, even if you're operating in different locations. Heck, 'tank' characters might have an ability to share their personal HP with adjacent allies. (This part's just a rough brainstorm.)

There's still a benefit to targeting a specific person because you can inflict conditions, and maybe if you can isolate someone you can take them out.