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Pastoralists vs Agrarians vs Nomads

Andor

First Post
The world building thread got me to thinking.

In a world with a functional supernatural element, how big a difference do different food gathering strategies make in a clash of cultures? Or other technologies? Is a late Iron age druid more fearsome that a neolithic one? Is a psion/shepard at a disadvantage to a psion/farmer? Do some classes only become available at certain tech levels? Wizards would seem to need to come after the development of writing, for example. Do any classes go away with greater technology?

Put another way, if the native americans had been a bunch of druids, shamans, and rangers, would a bunch of european fighters, clerics and mages have had such an easy time with them?
 
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Imret

First Post
DISCLAIMER: I am not a scientist, anthropologist, historian, or any of those things. I do, however, watch a lot of PBS and History Channel stuff, so what follows are my quick answers based off what those have taught me.

Andor said:
Is a late Iron age druid more fearsome that a neolithic one? Is a psion/shepard at a disadvantage to a psion/farmer?

No, but very few wars between cultures are settled by the virtues of a handful of spellcasters; they are still, with magic as presented in D&D, settled by armies.

Primitive cultures - hunter/gatherers, nomads, and the like - have very little free time to do things other than feed themselves; find edible plants, hunt animals, bring them back to camp, process them, eat them, do it all again tomorrow, or at most in a week or two. It's an awful system for supporting yourself. They cut tools from wood, stone, and animal parts, and because these tools break more easily, they have to make them more often.

On the other hand, a culture that builds farms, grain silos, and animal pens now has more time to do other things. Their food is just outside their homes, so not everybody has to work to produce food, so Iglug can work with this "copper" the hunters found. This leads to metal tools, armor, weapons, all of which make tool-making and food-gathering easier and easier. This means more people can eat, which means population gets bigger, and it keeps growing thusly.

As a result, a more modern society can field more soldiers with better equipment, and they're often disciplined and trained. They may even be professional soldiers, so while they're at war food is still grown, weapons are still manufactured, children are still born and raised. The more primitive society, being smaller in numbers thanks to their poor food gathering techniques, must rely on its hunters and craftsmen to wage war. When they die, there is no food being found, no tools being made, no children being taught the ways to get food and fashion food, unless you let old men, cripples, and women do these things.

A spellcaster might even the field in the short term, but eventually weapons technology and mass of numbers will win out. And, as discussed above in greater population support, they could even bring more spellcasters to the fray.

Andor said:
Do some classes only become available at certain tech levels? Wizards would seem to need to come after the development of writing, for example. Do any classes go away with greater technology?

The barbarian vanishes when a culture hits a certain point, but that has a lot to do with over-niching the barbarian rather than anything to do with the archetype of "berserker". Most classes are never "out of date" or "too advanced" as long as the culture has a few basic things (tools, language, spirituality), though I could see some cultures being too primitive/natural to separate between "barbarian", "fighter", and "ranger"; this self-same culture would have a very different paladin, also.

To avoid threadjack, I'll not discuss the monk here. :heh:

Andor said:
Put another way, if the native americans had been a bunch of druids, shamans, and rangers, would a bunch of european fighters, clerics and mages have had such an easy time with them?

Probably. Protection from Arrows is a Sor/Wiz spell, and bullets hurt like hell.
 

Evilhalfling

Adventurer
I agree with the pervious poster, and want to underline a few points -
Population size will also be a deteriming factor - and agrarian cultures allow for much larger populations. The more casters a society has the more likely some are to specialize in magic item creation - and the less an entire society will be hurt by the loss of one hero.
It really has a lot to with the inability of a small group to achieve specilization in non-food gathering roles. You may have a generally higher level of citzen, but they would be nowhere near normal wealth levels, as there would be few crafters or ways to spend excessive amounts of money.


- on the other hand a low tech society with a timeless druid - could hold off a lot of lower level heroes, and troops. There is also the concept that gets kicked around Enworld of a circle of druids who just keep reincarnating each other into younger bodies, until they all reach agelessness. This could serve as a nasty exception to the rule.
 

Imret

First Post
Evilhalfling said:
(snip) A circle of druids who just keep reincarnating each other into younger bodies, until they all reach agelessness.

:eek: YOINK! :D

That's one of my new favorites.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The barbarian vanishes when a culture hits a certain point...

Depends on how you define barbarian. I'd definitely include skinhead gangs of the modern world...

If you want to "test" the theory about Amerinds with functional magic versus Europeans, check out Atlas Games' Northern Crown setting...(Northern Crown ) - and no, I'm not a shill for the compan
The answer is, I think, a little more complicated than that. If the Native Americans are much more powerful magically, its probably an even fight.

After all, how much fun is a summoned Fire Elemental going to have when it closes in on guys using gunpowder? (For that matter, what about a Flame Strike against the same?)

What will a Water Elemental do to a paddleboat on the Mississippi or a flatboat in the Bayous of Louisiana or in the Everglades of Florida?

What if an Earth Elemental guarded what we know as Donner Pass and similar locales...like Yellowstone? Would Europeans have been able to get past avalanches and geyser eruptions that happen at the worst possible times?

What if a council of shamen control Air Elementals in Tornado Alley, flattening settlements at will?
 
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Andor

First Post
Imret said:
Very few wars between cultures are settled by the virtues of a handful of spellcasters; they are still, with magic as presented in D&D, settled by armies.

True for land wars, although a handful of high level druids could probably shut down sea access in a 'New world' scenario. Which shark just dropped a flame strike in your rigging? Or powder room?

The flip side to that is the mass/manuver portion of the equation. Nomads can concentrate a much larger percentage of their fighting force in a small area than Agriculturalists can, and can field a larger percentage of their population to boot.

Imret said:
Primitive cultures - hunter/gatherers, nomads, and the like - have very little free time to do things other than feed themselves; find edible plants, hunt animals, bring them back to camp, process them, eat them, do it all again tomorrow, or at most in a week or two. It's an awful system for supporting yourself. They cut tools from wood, stone, and animal parts, and because these tools break more easily, they have to make them more often.

Actually hunter/gatherers have more free time per day, on a personal leval, compared to other approches. So you might expect to see more levels and more pc classes in a hunter gatherer band. Agriculturalists and Pastoralists spend more of their day working on food production but can support extra population because of it. That extra population can specialize their entire time in some other pursuit.

So perhaps hunter/gatherers have more PC classes as a percentage of population but they will be generalist classes, whereas Agriculturalists and Pastoralists will be mostly commoners, but the PC classed people will be more specialized.

As to tools, magic crops up here too. An enchanted item does not wear or break unless struck with an equal or greater item. Given the small and static size of settlements it would not be very many generations before you would expect to see every adult member of the tribe equipped with a hereditary magic weapon. Or communally owned perhaps. Some classes supply their own weapons. Soul knives, Monks, Psi warriors, Incarnate classes, and Druids (past 3rd level) all need no external weapons, and fall under the generalist heading. Is sorcerer a primitve class? Psion?

We shouldn't ignore magics impact on food production either. How common can clerics be? If one in 10 people is a first level cleric how many people does that feed? Can druids manage the land to increase yields?

Imret said:
On the other hand, a culture that builds farms, grain silos, and animal pens now has more time to do other things. Their food is just outside their homes, so not everybody has to work to produce food, so Iglug can work with this "copper" the hunters found. This leads to metal tools, armor, weapons, all of which make tool-making and food-gathering easier and easier. This means more people can eat, which means population gets bigger, and it keeps growing thusly.

The trick here is we are all familiar with the impact of technology on society and vice versa, but we have no feel for where magic falls into it. Did the first cleric have access to the whole cleric spell list?

Imret said:
As a result, a more modern society can field more soldiers with better equipment, and they're often disciplined and trained. They may even be professional soldiers, so while they're at war food is still grown, weapons are still manufactured, children are still born and raised. The more primitive society, being smaller in numbers thanks to their poor food gathering techniques, must rely on its hunters and craftsmen to wage war. When they die, there is no food being found, no tools being made, no children being taught the ways to get food and fashion food, unless you let old men, cripples, and women do these things.

The numbers nod definitely goes to the Agriculturalists and Pastoralists.

Imret said:
A spellcaster might even the field in the short term, but eventually weapons technology and mass of numbers will win out. And, as discussed above in greater population support, they could even bring more spellcasters to the fray.

Also true.

I suppose the key question is this: DnD presumes that technological development stalls out at about the 1100 to 1200s. I'm asking if this tech level makes more sense than any other as a stalling point. When Thog has a +2 flaming, shocking, frost burst stone axe is he in awe of the bronze short sword? Do Clerics impress Druids?

Conversely, Why does DnD tech stall at the 1200s? Why have the elves not developed one single new thing in their 12000 year history? Why is the tower of the magi not made from cast concrete like Hadrians Pantheon (built in 118 ad)?
 

Haltherrion

First Post
Andor said:
Put another way, if the native americans had been a bunch of druids, shamans, and rangers, would a bunch of european fighters, clerics and mages have had such an easy time with them?

The norse were thwarted by the native americans (Skraelings? sp?). Arguably it was disease more than technology that allowed later Europeans to dominate but even if you go for the technology theory, I would think that the Norse experience suggests that if you have more comparable ability (as determined by magic in this case), it would be a more level playing field.

I think the biggest difference in the end between the different society types would be the population level each type allows. Agrarians can be much more dense, make many more of anything including casters, adventurer bands, and larger warbands (aka armies :D ). But with the right terrain and enough casters, I could imagine hunter-gatherers holding off agrarians, especially if the latter comes across a big sea in smallish numbers.

I think you could make a good case that the HG might have more casters (at least of the druid/cleric/shaman variety) than agrarians. Might even things out a bit.
 

TheLostSoul

Explorer
Andor said:
The world building thread got me to thinking.

In a world with a functional supernatural element, how big a difference do different food gathering strategies make in a clash of cultures? Or other technologies? Is a late Iron age druid more fearsome that a neolithic one? Is a psion/shepard at a disadvantage to a psion/farmer? Do some classes only become available at certain tech levels? Wizards would seem to need to come after the development of writing, for example. Do any classes go away with greater technology?

Put another way, if the native americans had been a bunch of druids, shamans, and rangers, would a bunch of european fighters, clerics and mages have had such an easy time with them?

This is a very complicated subject and there are no easy answers. I am an archaeology student specialized in Scandinavian pre-historic cultures.

The social structure often depends on the technological level of the culture. Most pre-bronze age cultures are gereontocracies. This is not absolute and is subject to error (there are great possibilities of error when looking at cultures that old and ethnological studies are not always good sources for looking at prehistoric cultures). This type of government cannot usually wield a large army. When in conflict, small units of warriors meet in a ritualised battle, that has few casuaties. Mainly a show of strength.

During the bronze age, it appears that a aristocracy emerges, with a few signs that notes that it might start in the late neolithic. These groups can wield greater groups of warriors and begin creating armies for conquest of other areas, thereby increasing their influence. These societies continue all the way to the middle ages, although they change in complexity and makeup continually.

The aristocracies also exist in the middle ages, but they are normally beholden to a king, who has complete power. This is a simplification, but does hold some truth. Some societies are different, but not much so. The basic makeup of the ruling bodies in the Roman Empire and the Greek city states does conform to the aforementioned, although they are much more complex. This is due to the pressure that the neighbouring cultures put on them and the requirements for wielding the massive amounts of trade that occured (not to say that there weren't much trade elsewhere but it was different, both in the ammounts and types of goods and in the reason why it happened).

This is one of the effects of a society's technology level.

The amount of work required to gather food also varies depending on how you gather it and what climate/terrain you occupy. Surprisingly, there is less work required for hunter/gatherer cultures to survive, than for agricultural societies. This is dependent of the aforementioned, but is true in most areas of habitation. Agricultural societies are often required to do alot of work to secure an output from their fields. Weeds have to be rooted out, birds scared away and animals has to be protected from predators.

This means the hunter/gatherer cultures often has more freetime than agricultural societies. That means that they have more time to improve skills that are not survival dependant. This is probably mostly social skills, due to the social structures in most such societies. Agricultural societies develope a wide variety of different skills to improve the outcome of their fields. Astronomy/astrology and engineering are some of those skills. This in turn leads to these elements transforming their cosmological/religious world. Often this is the time that cultures move towards more anthropomorphic gods rather than nature spirits (one does not necesarily rule out the other. There are alot of shamanic elements in norse mythology, for example).

Nomadic cultures can both subsize on hunter/gathering and herding. Both types probably requires an equal ammount of work, but herding has more security. These cultures are often very mobile and quite able to defend themselves.

What does this mean for a rpg? The more "primitive" cultures probably has more nature orientated classes, such as Druids, Rangers and Spirit Shamans. Bards are probably quite common as well. Nomadic groups are required to have great mobility. They often have the ride ability and does not carry more than absolutely needed. Agricultural cultures are more diverse. The new skills that comes with the neolithic package often opens up for more specialised classes, such as the Artificer. Specialised Fighters are still very rare in neolithic cultures, but becomes more common in later cultural levels. Druids are still quite common in comparison with Clerics, but this is slowly changing (depending on wether or not you allow Clerics to have shamanistic faiths).

I do not think Wizards should be used only in cultures with a written language. Iconography can replace a more standard alphabet as the magical writting in a spellbook. Magical symbols have a long history and could serve as the basis of the entire Wizardly tradition of a pre-literary culture.

Most spellcasters are very technology independent. It does not really matter much what kinds of non-magical technology that is available to a spellcaster, as it is the spellcasters spells that is the basis for his power. To Fighters, however, it is very important. The better the flintnapping techniques, the harder the metal, and so forth, the better.

Most classes do not become obsolete with increasing technological levels. It is different thing with social evolution. Rangers, Druids and like classes become alot more rare in more developed kingdoms/nations. The less wilderness the more rare wilderness orientated classes are (Druids and Spiritual Shamans could exist in urban settings, though in western oriented cultures, they are almost unknown).

EDIT: I mainly assume that magic is not very common. Perhaps just as much as our predecessors asumed, but i do not believe that technology would stop evolving because of magic. You have to have the touch of magic to use it, that is not the case with technology.
 
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TheLostSoul

Explorer
Andor said:
Also true.

I suppose the key question is this: DnD presumes that technological development stalls out at about the 1100 to 1200s. I'm asking if this tech level makes more sense than any other as a stalling point. When Thog has a +2 flaming, shocking, frost burst stone axe is he in awe of the bronze short sword? Do Clerics impress Druids?

Conversely, Why does DnD tech stall at the 1200s? Why have the elves not developed one single new thing in their 12000 year history? Why is the tower of the magi not made from cast concrete like Hadrians Pantheon (built in 118 ad)?

D&D technology does not really stall at the 1200s. There are plenty of examples of later technology in the Phb. Both items and social structure. It is one of the things that I dislike about D&D. Not because it is in the book, but because it is supposed to be available in all standard cultures. Also I dislike the normal lack of evolution in the settings history: the technological level has been the same since the beginnings of time... Not that it matters much, though :)
 

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