Pathfinder 1E Pathbreaker - musings of an amateur game designer
Lord Mhoram
Hero
Typo - meant Spheres system. Spheres of Power, Spheres of Might etc.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
I took a look and read through (lightly) the document. I think you are doing a good job of bringing 3x Epic to Pathfinder. Personally I won't find much use for it, but that is not because of your abilities or design. I personally never liked the way the Epic Level Handbook approached the material.
When that came up what I did was pretty much the same thing that they did with the concept of E6 (or P6). After 20th level there is one class "Epic Hero" - it gains 1 HP+con, and a class feature - and those were basically epic feats (in Pathfinder I am going to include mythic feats, and path abilities). To up attack bonus and saves there are feats for those, as well as for more HP, but I wanted to really really slow down advancement, so that high level published modules could be used. Sort of the opposite direction you went.
As to the bits I stole from the first thing you posted, I liked the Beastblooded concept, and am likely to make a version for my world. I really liked the "Supplementary Class" idea. I did my "Third Wheel" that was sort of "bonus in all directions" type of that, I was going to leave it at that, but after seeing yours, I am likely to do more. Gestalt is part of the system, it makes sense to build more towards that specific use.
Thanks for posting it.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
So plugging away at veils is still going on (and still tedious), and I've been working on a new character and an idea I was toying with, a Maneuver Based Magus.
There are some issues. There was no formal archetype for it in PoW Expanded. Second, in trying to figure out how to make your own archetypes, what kind of things that got replaced for maneuvers were, balance wise, all over the place. A bard gives up his entire spell casting, but a fighter gives up like 4 or 5 feats; with a rogue giving up 5 talents. Maybe they were trying to re-balance the base classes, but it makes it hard to utilize as a guide.
The second issue is one of action types. Spell Combat is a full round action, and Spell Strike replaces the touch attack with a melee attack as a special ability. Neither of those are the standard action that are maneuvers... especially full round action maneuvers.
So first thing - it would take much to include language in the Spell Strike and Spell combat that include standard action maneuvers as the attack. Done
The other - what to remove to add the archetype progression for maneuvers for the bard. One of the design goals for this new class is to keep the "fight and magic at once" vibe that is the core theme of the class, so I made some changes.
First - Spellcasting in now spontaneous - this really limits the choice of spells which can limit the power of the spellcaster.
2nd - I dropped Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, Greater Spell Access - all of these add either extra spells or more spells. Removing them reduces the Magus casting power overall, which is good as matching spells with damage enhancing maneuvers are scary enough. Then I got rid of counterstrike, mostly because "why not" and that I'd removed most other "magic but more" abilities, so it fit thematically.
So that drops 5 class abilities, and some of them were definitely more potent than a fight feat. Keeps the theme and downpowers, which is then re empowered with the Maneuvers.
I need to go through the magus arcana, and trim some and add some - it seems pretty obvious for one to do an "instant readied manuever" in there... and spell recall might return as an arcana, but not as an automatic ability.
Then to complete the theme, the three disciplines that are given with the class - Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass an Veiled Moon - three of the "These are magical disciplines" to further cement the combat & Magic mixed theme of the class.
There are some issues. There was no formal archetype for it in PoW Expanded. Second, in trying to figure out how to make your own archetypes, what kind of things that got replaced for maneuvers were, balance wise, all over the place. A bard gives up his entire spell casting, but a fighter gives up like 4 or 5 feats; with a rogue giving up 5 talents. Maybe they were trying to re-balance the base classes, but it makes it hard to utilize as a guide.
The second issue is one of action types. Spell Combat is a full round action, and Spell Strike replaces the touch attack with a melee attack as a special ability. Neither of those are the standard action that are maneuvers... especially full round action maneuvers.
So first thing - it would take much to include language in the Spell Strike and Spell combat that include standard action maneuvers as the attack. Done
The other - what to remove to add the archetype progression for maneuvers for the bard. One of the design goals for this new class is to keep the "fight and magic at once" vibe that is the core theme of the class, so I made some changes.
First - Spellcasting in now spontaneous - this really limits the choice of spells which can limit the power of the spellcaster.
2nd - I dropped Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, Greater Spell Access - all of these add either extra spells or more spells. Removing them reduces the Magus casting power overall, which is good as matching spells with damage enhancing maneuvers are scary enough. Then I got rid of counterstrike, mostly because "why not" and that I'd removed most other "magic but more" abilities, so it fit thematically.
So that drops 5 class abilities, and some of them were definitely more potent than a fight feat. Keeps the theme and downpowers, which is then re empowered with the Maneuvers.
I need to go through the magus arcana, and trim some and add some - it seems pretty obvious for one to do an "instant readied manuever" in there... and spell recall might return as an arcana, but not as an automatic ability.
Then to complete the theme, the three disciplines that are given with the class - Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass an Veiled Moon - three of the "These are magical disciplines" to further cement the combat & Magic mixed theme of the class.
glass
(he, him)
Glad you liked it!
A bit of backstory: The Beastblooded was inspired by the brief appearance of the Sorcerer in the DDN playtest. Not any of the specific mechanics (I am not sure I even had that playtest packet), but just the one line description of "bloodlined character becomes more monstrous as they use up their magic". It got quite a bit of traction when I talked about the idea on RPGnet, so it got developed into its current form.
EDIT: I responded to the Epic bits of your post above in the other thread.
_
glass.
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Lord Mhoram
Hero
So the last few days have been pretty scattershot. I did some work on veils, tried to see how editing maneuvers went. I started with Veils thinking it was the smallest of Veils, Maneuvers and Spells, and I don't think it is... lol.
I made a major change to Magisters for my game - they just get spells from all three realms (Psychic, Divine, Arcane) by default. I also was playing with a non spontaneous version. I made more additions to my fighter replacement Armsman (mostly adding third party fighter archetypes as talents), using archetype suggestions in Path of War, and adjusting some stuff I found I made a Maneuver/Spells version of Magus. I call it Bladecaster. I did some work on a couple of characters and/or other potential characters (I build characters and don't use them just as a form of creativity, and I like doing that) Then today I untangled a knot.
I have a "shaper" class that is a merge of a little akashic, Aegis suit and Soulblade. I never really liked the way it came off... And recently I read about the "enhanced" veils, which replace weapons, get bonuses from essence and binding, and can be enchanted like a normal magic item (although I use the innate progression so that last part isn't of use to me). The big problem was it didn't have a clear class identity or theme, it was just a number of mechanics that all sorta fit together, and so I fixed that today.
I created the "Astral Adept" who reaches in and reshapes the astral into things. Pieces I stole from other classes - Astral Suit, Enhanced Weapon Veils (but in this class while they use similar mechanics it isn't veils), the Summoner "summon monster" special abilities as Astral Constructs, some bits from the Shaper Psion Discipline and the Astral Sorcerer blood. Then filled it out with some bonus feats a few extra veils (but not really veils). The mechanics... while being pulled from multiple places, now have a consistent theme and identity. The class sings now, rather than mutters.
I made a major change to Magisters for my game - they just get spells from all three realms (Psychic, Divine, Arcane) by default. I also was playing with a non spontaneous version. I made more additions to my fighter replacement Armsman (mostly adding third party fighter archetypes as talents), using archetype suggestions in Path of War, and adjusting some stuff I found I made a Maneuver/Spells version of Magus. I call it Bladecaster. I did some work on a couple of characters and/or other potential characters (I build characters and don't use them just as a form of creativity, and I like doing that) Then today I untangled a knot.
I have a "shaper" class that is a merge of a little akashic, Aegis suit and Soulblade. I never really liked the way it came off... And recently I read about the "enhanced" veils, which replace weapons, get bonuses from essence and binding, and can be enchanted like a normal magic item (although I use the innate progression so that last part isn't of use to me). The big problem was it didn't have a clear class identity or theme, it was just a number of mechanics that all sorta fit together, and so I fixed that today.
I created the "Astral Adept" who reaches in and reshapes the astral into things. Pieces I stole from other classes - Astral Suit, Enhanced Weapon Veils (but in this class while they use similar mechanics it isn't veils), the Summoner "summon monster" special abilities as Astral Constructs, some bits from the Shaper Psion Discipline and the Astral Sorcerer blood. Then filled it out with some bonus feats a few extra veils (but not really veils). The mechanics... while being pulled from multiple places, now have a consistent theme and identity. The class sings now, rather than mutters.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
Did some fine tuning on my Armsman, Monk and the Maneuvers/spell Magus (Bladecaster - stolen from another class, I just liked that name).
Did more on characters than design the last few weeks. But that has been really fun.
Did more on characters than design the last few weeks. But that has been really fun.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
I have been lucky enough to be playing more, and theory crafting less, so updates to this will be sporadic. Still plan to post though.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
Three month gap and this thread is still on first page wow.
Back at writing and theory-crafting. Right now working on a new class - I mentioned a couple of posts ago. The Astral Adept.
I've got the basic framework down (when veils are chosen, along with how they power up) when bonus feats or special abilities are gained, and the astral suit customization points and most of the customization the class can use.
Balance issues - I'm pulling from multiple classes so I have to be extra careful - the Astral Suit is probably the single biggest thing in the class... and has slight less customization points, but I'm really limiting customization choices - if an ability or flavor could be gained from a veil, then I generally remove it. Veils - there are only 4, the weapon and 3 others. These are permanent choices, not something that can be change (think Sorcerer to Wizard in spell choice), and there is no actual akasha points. Each veil has a the equivalent of Akashic points given by level, which are permanently assigned. This guts a lot of the power of Veil-weaving classes, both in power, and in variety - but it keeps some veils that act as flavor. The "astral construct" thing is fine (this is for a solo game).
It's basically a frontline fighter (like an Aegis, or combat focused Veilweaver) but with a nice flavor and a number of "tricks" to give it flavor and variety - while the chasis is somewhat limiting, choosing different customimizataions, weapon and general veils can make two Astral Adepts very very different in play.
Back at writing and theory-crafting. Right now working on a new class - I mentioned a couple of posts ago. The Astral Adept.
I've got the basic framework down (when veils are chosen, along with how they power up) when bonus feats or special abilities are gained, and the astral suit customization points and most of the customization the class can use.
Balance issues - I'm pulling from multiple classes so I have to be extra careful - the Astral Suit is probably the single biggest thing in the class... and has slight less customization points, but I'm really limiting customization choices - if an ability or flavor could be gained from a veil, then I generally remove it. Veils - there are only 4, the weapon and 3 others. These are permanent choices, not something that can be change (think Sorcerer to Wizard in spell choice), and there is no actual akasha points. Each veil has a the equivalent of Akashic points given by level, which are permanently assigned. This guts a lot of the power of Veil-weaving classes, both in power, and in variety - but it keeps some veils that act as flavor. The "astral construct" thing is fine (this is for a solo game).
It's basically a frontline fighter (like an Aegis, or combat focused Veilweaver) but with a nice flavor and a number of "tricks" to give it flavor and variety - while the chasis is somewhat limiting, choosing different customimizataions, weapon and general veils can make two Astral Adepts very very different in play.
glass
(he, him)
Welcome back!
Quick question: I know veils are from Dreamscarred Press's take on Soulmelds from MoI, and astral constructs are from the psionics rules (both DPS's and WotC's). But where is "astral suit" from?
